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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 3:57 pm
 


Dayseed wrote:
OPP wrote:
My arguments? What exactly are "my arguments?". My first comment was adressing your and M1's "hockey is a business" bull. Teams come and go. a team wins the stanley cup and the year after they have less people going to the games? Why? NO fucking heart or soul. That's why.


Well, let's once again identify that you've consistently dodged answering the question of why (or why not) give Wendall Clark a huge fat contract? He's given you heart, soul, bone-crunching hits, points production and years of loyal service. How come he's not on the roster? Doesn't heart and soul count for something?

Nice dodge.

Here are your arguments:

Quote:
Loyalty counts for nothing and hockey culture means jack shit.


You're trying to be sarcastic, but much like your analysis, you fail at that. What does loyalty count for? Your argument implies that loyalty is only exhibited by the team and not the player. If a player is underperforming with a massive contract, what player in the history of any fucking sport anywhere has voluntarily given back undue salary? Where's the player's loyalty to the team? They take whatever the fuck they can. So, you fail on the "loyalty" aspect by trying to make a GM's job one of granting contracts based on years service regardless of performance.

Hockey culture is another massively stupid argument to sarcastically put forth. This is the NHL, not Feely McLove League. Hard work, talent and luck get you to the Stanley Cup, not awarding fat contracts to underperforming players. Each contract granted to players for the wrong reasons robs a team of the ability to sign a worthier player. In the NHL, the culture is winning, not smiling and sharing feelings. You want Timbits hockey.

Quote:
Everything is based on using any means necessary to win a cup based on pride, hockey culture, history, heart and glory. How ironic.


Here you have a mismash collection of adjectives that don't even belong. Who wins a cup based on "history"? What, because Dave Keon was the leading points man in 1967 we should keep on signing him again and again and again? Does the current roster of the Leafs require a Dave Keonesque character? What kind of horseshit requirement is "history"?

And speaking of unintentional irony, you list "glory" as one of the things the Stanley Cup is based on. Glory comes from winning dumbass. Not from rewarding underperforming players with massive contracts to suit their egos rather than their stats.

Quote:
You two should be bankers and leave hockey the fuck alone.


Your next argument fixates on the idea that because I don't care a fig for the Leafs keeping on with idiot signings, like the likes of Bryan McCabe or God-in-Heaven-Above Tie Domi's old contract, I shouldn't be involved in hockey.

Guess what? JFJ got fired and is renowned as a total idiot for doing EXACTLY WHAT YOU'RE PREACHING. He got cozy with players and it blew his already stupid judgement, and here you come along as a JFJ apologist, hell-bent on justifying idiotic ideologies unbefitting a GM.

Thankfully, Cliff Fletcher isn't you and the trades he'll make and the contracts he'll dump will clean up a sloppy, bloated team that doesn't stand a prayer in the playoffs. Once he rekindles the kind of team that damn near won the 1993 Stanley Cup, you can fuck right off during the parade because all your short-sighted After-School-Special Hakunah-Mattata strategy did was keep the Leafs in the Northeast basement.


No no no.. You're missing my point once again. When hockey is nothing but a business, it's dead. Why go to the games and spend your money on a team where the players go to the highest bidder and loyltie does not exist from eather the team nor the player? where everythings about making a buck? Why watch a team that's been sold and sold again to some ******* excuse for a citie and put your hopes into a player who switch team once every two years? Why? There is still some sense of pride, tradition and loyaltie in the game and you want it gone? That's what bothers me.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 6:02 pm
 


OPP wrote:
No no no.. You're missing my point once again.


No, no, no, you've failed to make any point. Again.

Quote:
When hockey is nothing but a business, it's dead. Why go to the games and spend your money on a team where the players go to the highest bidder and loyltie does not exist from eather the team nor the player? where everythings about making a buck? Why watch a team that's been sold and sold again to some ******* excuse for a citie and put your hopes into a player who switch team once every two years? Why? There is still some sense of pride, tradition and loyaltie in the game and you want it gone? That's what bothers me.


Wow, what a capitulation speech. Let's live in your world for a spell. Why not enforce loyalty? Once a team drafts a player, that's it. They're the only team that has that player for his entire career. Trades are out. That way, when a player stinks, he's done entirely. No second chance with another team, he's run out on a rail.

Teams can't move cities either. If a team is losing buckets of money in a small market, too bad, go out of business. Somewhere, somebody has bought a jersey and the private owner can be damned accordingly.

Players are now responsible for the hopes of fans. That's right, if a fan projects his hope onto a player, that player becomes burdened with it and must consult the fan before every game to see if they are satisfactorly carrying the burden. Would the fan want more offensive zone awareness or perhaps better mid-ice passing finesse? If the player is found wanting, he's fined $1000.

The last of your terrible capitulation speech is troubling to me. You want lofty ideals to be held true, but what "tradition" are you talking about? Where in the NHL did players stick with a team their whole career? What percentage of them actually have played on only one team for more than 10 seasons? Brodeur? Is Gretzky considered a non-traditional player with no pride or loyalty because he played for 4 teams during his career? What asswipe logic is that? You skipped the whole part about the player loyalty, I imagine you had no rebuttal.

Teams have moved cities since there's been professional leagues. It's part of the "tradition" because professional leagues operate in the real world, not After-School-Special Handylimpics Land where everybody rides to the rink on a rainbow made of smiles.

So, all of your posts have floundered accordingly. Giving Bryan McCabe a fat contract isn't "loyal" "proud" or part of any "tradition", giving McCabe a fat contract is a "mistake" because he takes up valuable cap-room and hinders the Leafs chances of winning the Cup. What is more important, winning the Stanley Cup or rewarding McCabe for mediocre point production and sub-standard defense because he's been there a while and somebody bought Under-Armour because he endorsed it?

Drop the nonsense and join us in the real world. The air is much better.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 6:53 pm
 


Dayseed wrote:
Wow, what a capitulation speech. Let's live in your world for a spell. Why not enforce loyalty? Once a team drafts a player, that's it. They're the only team that has that player for his entire career. Trades are out. That way, when a player stinks, he's done entirely. No second chance with another team, he's run out on a rail.


You're the one promoting NHL as strictly business. I've never argued that players should not be able to switch teams.


Quote:
Teams can't move cities either. If a team is losing buckets of money in a small market, too bad, go out of business. Somewhere, somebody has bought a jersey and the private owner can be damned accordingly.

ABSOLUTELY! Having a closed leage like the NHL is damn near blasphemy!
Any citie in Canada and the U.S should be able to contend in the NHL without having to buy a spot if someones ready to sell.
Having several divisions where teams can advance to the NHL and the worst teams be degraded to lower divisions is what I would like to see. Now you cant simply buy a spot in the NHL. I'm confident that there would be more Canadian teams in the NHL with a serie system like that.
It's rediculous having hockey teams in cities that have never even seen snow! It's like it's some sort of a goof! It's like there's sickingly wealthy people around that decides to buy themselfs a hockey team as some sort of freakshow for the town to see!
You think kids in Florida grow up playing pond hockey? Think they have a very rich history of skating and hockey? Fuck them. They shouldn't have a hockey team! It's just so bizarre.

Quote:
The last of your terrible capitulation speech is troubling to me. You want lofty ideals to be held true, but what "tradition" are you talking about?


Tradition as in hockey tradition. No buying selling teams each year to these akword places where hockey is a number 4-5 sport, if that even.

Quote:
Where in the NHL did players stick with a team their whole career? What percentage of them actually have played on only one team for more than 10 seasons? Brodeur? Is Gretzky considered a non-traditional player with no pride or loyalty because he played for 4 teams during his career? What asswipe logic is that? You skipped the whole part about the player loyalty, I imagine you had no rebuttal.

Player loyalty? If the owners do not respect a players wish to remain with the team even though he's clearly an asset and the owners angle is to sqeez out as much money as possible, as if hockey was played in the stockmarket rather than in a hockey rink, or the player goes to the highest bidder becaus all he's interested in is a hefty salary, then fuck 'em.
That's what I have to say about that.

Quote:
So, all of your posts have floundered accordingly. Giving Bryan McCabe a fat contract isn't "loyal" "proud" or part of any "tradition", giving McCabe a fat contract is a "mistake" because he takes up valuable cap-room and hinders the Leafs chances of winning the Cup. What is more important, winning the Stanley Cup or rewarding McCabe for mediocre point production and sub-standard defense because he's been there a while and somebody bought Under-Armour because he endorsed it?

Drop the nonsense and join us in the real world. The air is much better.


I'm not arguing McCabes contract. If players are greedy and blinded by money, tell them to find another team to play for.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 5:09 pm
 


OPP wrote:
Dayseed wrote:
Wow, what a capitulation speech. Let's live in your world for a spell. Why not enforce loyalty? Once a team drafts a player, that's it. They're the only team that has that player for his entire career. Trades are out. That way, when a player stinks, he's done entirely. No second chance with another team, he's run out on a rail.


You're the one promoting NHL as strictly business. I've never argued that players should not be able to switch teams.


Quote:
Teams can't move cities either. If a team is losing buckets of money in a small market, too bad, go out of business. Somewhere, somebody has bought a jersey and the private owner can be damned accordingly.

ABSOLUTELY! Having a closed leage like the NHL is damn near blasphemy!
Any citie in Canada and the U.S should be able to contend in the NHL without having to buy a spot if someones ready to sell.
Having several divisions where teams can advance to the NHL and the worst teams be degraded to lower divisions is what I would like to see. Now you cant simply buy a spot in the NHL. I'm confident that there would be more Canadian teams in the NHL with a serie system like that.
It's rediculous having hockey teams in cities that have never even seen snow! It's like it's some sort of a goof! It's like there's sickingly wealthy people around that decides to buy themselfs a hockey team as some sort of freakshow for the town to see!
You think kids in Florida grow up playing pond hockey? Think they have a very rich history of skating and hockey? Fuck them. They shouldn't have a hockey team! It's just so bizarre.

Quote:
The last of your terrible capitulation speech is troubling to me. You want lofty ideals to be held true, but what "tradition" are you talking about?


Tradition as in hockey tradition. No buying selling teams each year to these akword places where hockey is a number 4-5 sport, if that even.

Quote:
Where in the NHL did players stick with a team their whole career? What percentage of them actually have played on only one team for more than 10 seasons? Brodeur? Is Gretzky considered a non-traditional player with no pride or loyalty because he played for 4 teams during his career? What asswipe logic is that? You skipped the whole part about the player loyalty, I imagine you had no rebuttal.

Player loyalty? If the owners do not respect a players wish to remain with the team even though he's clearly an asset and the owners angle is to sqeez out as much money as possible, as if hockey was played in the stockmarket rather than in a hockey rink, or the player goes to the highest bidder becaus all he's interested in is a hefty salary, then fuck 'em.
That's what I have to say about that.

Quote:
So, all of your posts have floundered accordingly. Giving Bryan McCabe a fat contract isn't "loyal" "proud" or part of any "tradition", giving McCabe a fat contract is a "mistake" because he takes up valuable cap-room and hinders the Leafs chances of winning the Cup. What is more important, winning the Stanley Cup or rewarding McCabe for mediocre point production and sub-standard defense because he's been there a while and somebody bought Under-Armour because he endorsed it?

Drop the nonsense and join us in the real world. The air is much better.


I'm not arguing McCabes contract. If players are greedy and blinded by money, tell them to find another team to play for.


I just read your post. The most ironic thing in the universe is that officially, you think OTHER people should refrain from commenting on hockey.

You answered nothing. Talking with you about this is pointless, you don't answer questions, you ramble off-topic without even noticing when you do and your ideas about hockey are simply the worst imaginable. Even more glaring, you simply state that you're not arguing McCabe's contract. GUESS WHAT THE WHOLE FUCKING POINT OF THE THREAD WAS? Figured it out? It's the quagmire the Leafs are in and how they're going to get out of it.

Once again, I suggest for you Timbits hockey; where the first goal is having fun.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 6:19 pm
 


Dayseed wrote:
I just read your post. The most ironic thing in the universe is that officially, you think OTHER people should refrain from commenting on hockey.

You answered nothing. Talking with you about this is pointless, you don't answer questions, you ramble off-topic without even noticing when you do and your ideas about hockey are simply the worst imaginable. Even more glaring, you simply state that you're not arguing McCabe's contract. GUESS WHAT THE WHOLE FUCKING POINT OF THE THREAD WAS? Figured it out? It's the quagmire the Leafs are in and how they're going to get out of it.

Once again, I suggest for you Timbits hockey; where the first goal is having fun.


:lol: "My" ideas seem to be working fine here in Sweden. There are no teams being
bought and sold and we have many lower divisions under the Elite Series from where any team in the country can advance to the Elite Series. If your team's doing poorly it's degraded to the lower divisions.

The sport I consider to be nr 1, however, is Soccer and why I consider it nr1 instead of hockey is becaus of my local team here in Gothenburg, GAIS (Göteborgs Atlet & Idrottssällskap) and it's fan base. It's playing in the highest division but is not run like a company but by it's members who apoint it's board members and vote on other matters of the club once a year.
Recently there was much controversie surounding the clubs future becaus of talks of merging GAIS with two other local rivals (BKH & ÖIS) to create a club which could compete at the highest level of football in Europe.
It had been done in Copenhagen where several local rivals merged into what is now the very successful F.C. Copenhagen.
Tnis was not met with much enthusiasm by GAIS supporters, to say the least, however, as GAIS has a very rich history stretching over a 100 years back.
The board asked it's members if they were ready to risk playing in lower divisions as the competition for sponsoring money, fans and media coverage was being won by a third rival, IFK Göteborg, who insidentaly won the cup last year.
All the members unilaterally said yes.
We keep on struggling in the bottom of the "Allsvenskan" and we're contempt with this situation becaus history, loyalty and the love for our team comes before business and success. Atleast in our world.
Do we want GAIS to win the cup? Of coarse we do! But not at the expence of our history or the heart and soul of the team.
A few years back GAIS was in a really tough spot and found itself in the third division. We had a great forward back then who was too good to play in this division and the club only had him on loan from a Norwegian club and there was no money to buy him.
The fans stepped in, collected the money and sent thousands of letters to his home pleading and begging him to stay, as we all loved him for his character and for his skills. He was so moved by this that he descided to stay, GAIS advanced through the divisions and the song we sang to him back then is still sung each and every game to this day. He is commemorated once a year when he comes on to the pitch once again.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 6:29 pm
 


OPP wrote:

The sport I consider to be nr 1, however, is Soccer and why I consider it nr1 instead of hockey is becaus of my local team here in Gothenburg, GAIS (Göteborgs Atlet & Idrottssällskap) and it's fan base. It's playing in the highest division but is not run like a company but by it's members who apoint it's board members and vote on other matters of the club once a year.
Recently there was much controversie surounding the clubs future becaus of talks of merging GAIS with two other local rivals (BKH & ÖIS) to create a club which could compete at the highest level of football in Europe.
It had been done in Copenhagen where several local rivals merged into what is now the very successful F.C. Copenhagen.
Tnis was not met with much enthusiasm by GAIS supporters, to say the least, however, as GAIS has a very rich history stretching over a 100 years back.
The board asked it's members if they were ready to risk playing in lower divisions as the competition for sponsoring money, fans and media coverage was being won by a third rival, IFK Göteborg, who insidentaly won the cup last year.
All the members unilaterally said yes.
We keep on struggling in the bottom of the "Allsvenskan" and we're contempt with this situation becaus history, loyalty and the love for our team comes before business and success. Atleast in our world.
Do we want GAIS to win the cup? Of coarse we do! But not at the expence of our history or the heart and soul of the team.
A few years back GAIS was in a really tough spot and found itself in the third division. We had a great forward back then who was too good to play in this division and the club only had him on loan from a Norwegian club and there was no money to buy him.
The fans stepped in, collected the money and sent thousands of letters to his home pleading and begging him to stay, as we all loved him for his character and for his skills. He was so moved by this that he descided to stay, GAIS advanced through the divisions and the song we sang to him back then is still sung each and every game to this day. He is commemorated once a year when he comes on to the pitch once again.


And what exactly does this have to do with a thread discusing the NHL? Or salary caps? Or the Leafs horrendous performance this year? Or the fact the Bryan McCabe is a complete pylon?


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 6:39 pm
 


OPP,

Well, doesn't your post explain your utter lack of knowledge concerning the NHL. Thanks but no thanks. If you want to start a Sweden League thread, be my guest, but keep your European ideas in Europe. This is North America. I have maps if you need them.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 6:54 pm
 


2Cdo wrote:
OPP wrote:

The sport I consider to be nr 1, however, is Soccer and why I consider it nr1 instead of hockey is becaus of my local team here in Gothenburg, GAIS (Göteborgs Atlet & Idrottssällskap) and it's fan base. It's playing in the highest division but is not run like a company but by it's members who apoint it's board members and vote on other matters of the club once a year.
Recently there was much controversie surounding the clubs future becaus of talks of merging GAIS with two other local rivals (BKH & ÖIS) to create a club which could compete at the highest level of football in Europe.
It had been done in Copenhagen where several local rivals merged into what is now the very successful F.C. Copenhagen.
Tnis was not met with much enthusiasm by GAIS supporters, to say the least, however, as GAIS has a very rich history stretching over a 100 years back.
The board asked it's members if they were ready to risk playing in lower divisions as the competition for sponsoring money, fans and media coverage was being won by a third rival, IFK Göteborg, who insidentaly won the cup last year.
All the members unilaterally said yes.
We keep on struggling in the bottom of the "Allsvenskan" and we're contempt with this situation becaus history, loyalty and the love for our team comes before business and success. Atleast in our world.
Do we want GAIS to win the cup? Of coarse we do! But not at the expence of our history or the heart and soul of the team.
A few years back GAIS was in a really tough spot and found itself in the third division. We had a great forward back then who was too good to play in this division and the club only had him on loan from a Norwegian club and there was no money to buy him.
The fans stepped in, collected the money and sent thousands of letters to his home pleading and begging him to stay, as we all loved him for his character and for his skills. He was so moved by this that he descided to stay, GAIS advanced through the divisions and the song we sang to him back then is still sung each and every game to this day. He is commemorated once a year when he comes on to the pitch once again.


And what exactly does this have to do with a thread discusing the NHL? Or salary caps? Or the Leafs horrendous performance this year? Or the fact the Bryan McCabe is a complete pylon?


It has nothing and everything to do with the NHL or the Leafs. Arguing that the NHL is strictly business is what could be the death of the sport. The Leafs has a lot of things going for the team beside it's absent success. Why do they have so many fans despite the fact that the team is doing so poorly each year? I was trying to explain that the only thing that could jeopardize the teams existence is by not valuing or treasuring the teams already great history and tradition.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 7:04 pm
 


Why oh why OPP do you care about the Leafs? come over to my side... :wink: You know you want to...we have great cookies :lol:

Game on at 6:30pm...i expect you there... :wink:


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 7:08 pm
 


TattoodGirl wrote:
Why oh why OPP do you care about the Leafs? come over to my side... :wink: You know you want to...we have great cookies :lol:

Game on at 6:30pm...i expect you there... :wink:

Haha! I'll need a power nap then. :lol: What time do you got now?


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 7:12 pm
 


OPP wrote:
TattoodGirl wrote:
Why oh why OPP do you care about the Leafs? come over to my side... :wink: You know you want to...we have great cookies :lol:

Game on at 6:30pm...i expect you there... :wink:

Haha! I'll need a power nap then. :lol: What time do you got now?


6:10 PST...hold on for 20 mins...I know you can do it... :lol:


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 3:51 am
 


OPP wrote:
It has nothing and everything to do with the NHL or the Leafs. Arguing that the NHL is strictly business is what could be the death of the sport. The Leafs has a lot of things going for the team beside it's absent success. Why do they have so many fans despite the fact that the team is doing so poorly each year? I was trying to explain that the only thing that could jeopardize the teams existence is by not valuing or treasuring the teams already great history and tradition.


Ah yes, if the Leafs started winning the Cup by making smart trades to improve the team without being held back by a small cadre of idiot fans, the team would surely disappear.

That was your thesis? Good Lord, no wonder you didn't convince anybody.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 11:16 am
 


Dayseed wrote:
OPP wrote:
It has nothing and everything to do with the NHL or the Leafs. Arguing that the NHL is strictly business is what could be the death of the sport. The Leafs has a lot of things going for the team beside it's absent success. Why do they have so many fans despite the fact that the team is doing so poorly each year? I was trying to explain that the only thing that could jeopardize the teams existence is by not valuing or treasuring the teams already great history and tradition.


Ah yes, if the Leafs started winning the Cup by making smart trades to improve the team without being held back by a small cadre of idiot fans, the team would surely disappear.

That was your thesis? Good Lord, no wonder you didn't convince anybody.

No, those are your words. Not mine.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 2:08 pm
 


OPP wrote:
Dayseed wrote:
OPP wrote:
It has nothing and everything to do with the NHL or the Leafs. Arguing that the NHL is strictly business is what could be the death of the sport. The Leafs has a lot of things going for the team beside it's absent success. Why do they have so many fans despite the fact that the team is doing so poorly each year? I was trying to explain that the only thing that could jeopardize the teams existence is by not valuing or treasuring the teams already great history and tradition.


Ah yes, if the Leafs started winning the Cup by making smart trades to improve the team without being held back by a small cadre of idiot fans, the team would surely disappear.

That was your thesis? Good Lord, no wonder you didn't convince anybody.

No, those are your words. Not mine.


Duh. Of course they're HIS word, not yours. At the end of the day you simply don't know squat about the NHL. It's a business - just look at Gretzky leaving Edmonton, Expansion, Lockouts, CBA, Free-Agency to give anyone who's somewhat conscious the idea that this is economics pure and simple.

Next


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 2:41 pm
 


OPP,

Knock off the nonsense. You've confused the NHL with the Swedish Elite League since the first time you barfed on this thread, you've advanced notions you've promptly run away from, you've plainly stated you're not here to argue the nuts and bolts of how the Leafs came to be a sub-standard team and your last idiotic gaffe of "I was trying to explain that the only thing that could jeopardize the teams existence is by not valuing or treasuring the teams already great history and tradition." is the most puerile prattle this thread has seen since Sports_Master said McCabe was a better defenceman than Pronger.

The Leafs aren't in any danger of going anywhere doorknob, they're simply not. Fans are not going to desert the team in droves because Cliff Fletcher decided to give out contracts to deserving players rather than mediocre long-serving veterans ESPECIALLY if the Leafs start becoming serious Cup contenders due to his savvy trades. According to your ignorant opinion, when Fletcher traded Craig Berube, Jeff Reese and the gang for Gilmour and the others, Toronto should have been playing to empty stands for years due to the butchering of the "tradition" and "banker-style" trade-brokering.

But guess what OPP? THEY DAMN NEAR WON THE CUP THE FOLLOWING YEAR AND GILMOUR IS A PERMANENTLY BELOVED LEAF, GODDAMN YOU ARE STUPID.


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