[Bruce_the_vii]

cougar cougar:

andyt andyt:

If in the course of ten years an otherwise able bodied and able minded person is still serving coffee at the front counter of Timmie's then that's their problem and not mine.

It is their problem but they may have no choice. Let's face it, low end jobs are much more than the middle /upper level jobs. Not everyone can move on up, unless there is huge growth with more good jobs created. Then someone else (like an immigrant or refugee) who has no choice will have to do the bloody job.

I find that the issue isn't with able bodied males rather it's with women. Women who dedicate themselves to raising a family and then go back to work when they become empty nesters. At that point they may be 50 and they aren't going to retrain. So we get all these women working retail, and there stuck there.

Young women with expectations of having a family aren't in much better position. They aren't about to undertake a long training. You see them in waitressing in restaurants: beautiful, young, their life ahead of them but dangers all around, including the labour market. In Toronto here they tease them about it out loud, comment on their "bum" and that.

Also the competition for the better jobs is quite fierce because the low wage sector is large.

[bootlegga]

andyt andyt:

cougar cougar:

andyt andyt:

If in the course of ten years an otherwise able bodied and able minded person is still serving coffee at the front counter of Timmie's then that's their problem and not mine.

It is their problem but they may have no choice. Let's face it, low end jobs are much more than the middle /upper level jobs. Not everyone can move on up, unless there is huge growth with more good jobs created. Then someone else (like an immigrant or refugee) who has no choice will have to do the bloody job.

I did not write that. If you check back, you'll probably find that Boots wrote that - certainly sounds like him.

Nope, note me - feel free to keep tossing out generalizations though.

[bootlegga]

andyt andyt:

You'll always have jobs that are at the bottom of the economic ladder. Despite your assertion, a large proportion of low wage workers are adults trying to raise a family on that income. We can't train every one for better jobs if there aren't enough better jobs for everyone.

And you can sneer at 50 cents, doubt if a min wage worker would. As I've said, tie the min wage to the low income cutoff - that way min wage workers receive enough to live a modest life and get increases based on inflation.

Increasing the min wage has also been shown to push up wages within 1/4 of that min wage, so it pushes up all the low wage workers a bit. And, people who earn more pay more taxes and draw less on some govt benefits. Saves the govt money, transfers that cost to business, where it belongs.

Yes, you'll always have low wage jobs at the bottom of the ladder, but as I've noted, most people don't spend their entire lives working in those jobs - they get experience/training and move up to something else. Those that do stay in sectors famous for minimum wage jobs generally work their way up to shift leader/assistant manager/whatever and suddenly no longer make minimum wage. The truly ambitious become full blown managers or even franchisees.

If you're not willing to work hard enough to become a shift leader/assistant manager (which isn't very hard at all IMHO), then why should I, John Doe, make sure you get paid more money? The way the world works is that those who are willing to put in an effort are rewarded and those who do not are not rewarded.

And I'm not sneering at 50 cent raises - I'm just saying that 50 cents never uplifted someone from poverty to a much better life. I received several 50 cent raises in the 90s, and they never allowed me to buy a car, move into a better place or anything else major. They let me buy a few more beers on the weekend, or an extra CD or two and so on.

Then, shortly after government mandated minimum wage increased, prices for lots of things I bought increased, from food at fast food joints, to the movies, to clothes at the Gap. Not very much, maybe by a quarter here or a dollar there, but it was enough to minimize the increase in minimum wage I had just received. So, yes, the increase in minimum wage helped me, but not to the degree you seem to believe.

[andyt]

bootlegga bootlegga:

And I'm not sneering at 50 cent raises - I'm just saying that 50 cents never uplifted someone from poverty to a much better life. I received several 50 cent raises in the 90s, and they never allowed me to buy a car, move into a better place or anything else major. They let me buy a few more beers on the weekend, or an extra CD or two and so on.

Then, shortly after government mandated minimum wage increased, prices for lots of things I bought increased, from food at fast food joints, to the movies, to clothes at the Gap. Not very much, maybe by a quarter here or a dollar there, but it was enough to minimize the increase in minimum wage I had just received. So, yes, the increase in minimum wage helped me, but not to the degree you seem to believe.

This economic theory of yours is amazing. You should publish it. Only min wage increases cause inflation.

There's a simple answer to that - tie min wage to inflation, ie link it to the LICO.

[bootlegga]

andyt andyt:

bootlegga bootlegga:

And I'm not sneering at 50 cent raises - I'm just saying that 50 cents never uplifted someone from poverty to a much better life. I received several 50 cent raises in the 90s, and they never allowed me to buy a car, move into a better place or anything else major. They let me buy a few more beers on the weekend, or an extra CD or two and so on.

Then, shortly after government mandated minimum wage increased, prices for lots of things I bought increased, from food at fast food joints, to the movies, to clothes at the Gap. Not very much, maybe by a quarter here or a dollar there, but it was enough to minimize the increase in minimum wage I had just received. So, yes, the increase in minimum wage helped me, but not to the degree you seem to believe.

This economic theory of yours is amazing. You should publish it. Only min wage increases cause inflation.

There's a simple answer to that - tie min wage to inflation, ie link it to the LICO.

I never said minimum wage increases are the only reason for inflation - that's you trying to put words in my mouth. The problem here is your inability to understand what anyone who doesn't agree with you says on this issue.

You bitch and moan about how people misquote/misinterpret you all the time, yet you are an expert on doing it yourself.

Pot meet kettle...

Finally, this comment here is funny, because on the last page you said;

andyt andyt:

Saves the govt money, transfers that cost to business, where it belongs.

Now, who do you think businesses will pass that cost onto - the government or consumers? Consumers obviously.

And how does a business usually pass wage costs onto consumers? By raising prices.

Sure, on occasion they might reduce the numbers of employees or reduce the product quality/size, or even in the case of a really altruistic company (few and far between), swallow the increase and go on conducting business.

However, the most common method of dealing with increases in wages is to up prices.

You can propose linking minimum wage to LICO all you want, but I stand by the merit system. If you want to earn a better living, make an effort and become a manager or get some training or do something. Just don't rely on others to make your life better - because as I've said all too often - if you wait for someone else to feed you, you'll usually go hungry.

[herbie]

We have always had minimum wage laws. The big problem is when they aren't addressed for over a decade like in BC.
You feel the hit of a 10% hike ($8 to $8.75), a 25% hike ($8 - $10) would be a killer. Should have gone up yearly with inflation (maybe 2%) in barely noticeable steps and no one would be bitching.

[OnTheIce]

andyt andyt:

bootlegga bootlegga:

And I'm not sneering at 50 cent raises - I'm just saying that 50 cents never uplifted someone from poverty to a much better life. I received several 50 cent raises in the 90s, and they never allowed me to buy a car, move into a better place or anything else major. They let me buy a few more beers on the weekend, or an extra CD or two and so on.

Then, shortly after government mandated minimum wage increased, prices for lots of things I bought increased, from food at fast food joints, to the movies, to clothes at the Gap. Not very much, maybe by a quarter here or a dollar there, but it was enough to minimize the increase in minimum wage I had just received. So, yes, the increase in minimum wage helped me, but not to the degree you seem to believe.

This economic theory of yours is amazing. You should publish it. Only min wage increases cause inflation.

There's a simple answer to that - tie min wage to inflation, ie link it to the LICO.

You have GIGANTIC balls to make fun of someone's view on economics. Wow!

[andyt]

herbie herbie:

We have always had minimum wage laws. The big problem is when they aren't addressed for over a decade like in BC.
You feel the hit of a 10% hike ($8 to $8.75), a 25% hike ($8 - $10) would be a killer. Should have gone up yearly with inflation (maybe 2%) in barely noticeable steps and no one would be bitching.

My understanding is that if BC had done that when they brought in the $8 min wage (at the time one of the highest in the country) min wage now would be around $11 - ie right around the LICO for a single person in Vancouver.

[andyt]

bootlegga bootlegga:

Finally, this comment here is funny, because on the last page you said;

andyt andyt:

Saves the govt money, transfers that cost to business, where it belongs.

Now, who do you think businesses will pass that cost onto - the government or consumers? Consumers obviously.

And how does a business usually pass wage costs onto consumers? By raising prices.

Sure, on occasion they might reduce the numbers of employees or reduce the product quality/size, or even in the case of a really altruistic company (few and far between), swallow the increase and go on conducting business.

However, the most common method of dealing with increases in wages is to up prices.

You can propose linking minimum wage to LICO all you want, but I stand by the merit system. If you want to earn a better living, make an effort and become a manager or get some training or do something. Just don't rely on others to make your life better - because as I've said all too often - if you wait for someone else to feed you, you'll usually go hungry.

Sure, as business costs increase they will try to pass it on to the consumer. But, raising the min wage will result in business passing that cost on to all consumers, not just min wage earners - ie the cost is spread out over the popn. Since wages are only a fraction of business costs, there is not a one to one, or anywhere close to that, ratio of min wage increase and cost increase.

The thing is, you only whine about these cost increases when we're talking about min wage. Business will try to pass on any wage increase they pay, including those earning higher wages. In fact people earning min wage or up to 1/4 + min wage make up around 25% of the workforce. So wage increases for the rest of of us have a much larger effect. Yet you never whine about that. Raising the min wage is a form of income redistribution. It's a good thing.

[cougar]

andyt andyt:

cougar cougar:

XX XX:

If in the course of ten years an otherwise able bodied and able minded person is still serving coffee at the front counter of Timmie's then that's their problem and not mine.

It is their problem but they may have no choice. Let's face it, low end jobs are much more than the middle /upper level jobs. Not everyone can move on up, unless there is huge growth with more good jobs created. Then someone else (like an immigrant or refugee) who has no choice will have to do the bloody job.

I did not write that. If you check back, you'll probably find that Boots wrote that - certainly sounds like him.

Sorry Andyt, I forgot to change the name inside the quotation tags. It was indeed Boots.

[bootlegga]

cougar cougar:

XX XX:

If in the course of ten years an otherwise able bodied and able minded person is still serving coffee at the front counter of Timmie's then that's their problem and not mine.

Sorry Andyt, I forgot to change the name inside the quotation tags. It was indeed Boots.

Nope, still wrong - it was Bart on page 4.

But I do agree with it. Moving up from cashier to shift leader at Timmies doesn't take a degree, just a little effort and willingness to work.

[cougar]

bootlegga bootlegga:

Nope, still wrong - it was Bart on page 4.

Sorry guys, I need a new pair of glasses and better concentration.