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PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 11:18 am
 


Mass media, the UN, certain posters on this Board, and certain former officials of France, among others, would have people believe that the Arabs were thrust into a bellicose role towards the world by Israeli aggression and intransigence. This school of thought blames Muslim-generated strife throughout the world on the "sense of hopelessness" engendered by Israel. This is not close to being true.

Early on, the Hebrews differntiated themselves from their neighbors by being more civilized. G-d stopped child sacrifice among the Jews, leading Abraham to the edge of killing his son, Isaac and then pulling back. The lesson learned by the Hebrews is that we don't do that, even though the surrounding tribes did. One wonders if the "surrounding tribes" have changed much, given their proclivity to send impressionable children as walking bombs onto Israeli buses and into jammed public facilities. And don't forget 911 either in this regard.

An even more striking ancient parellel is found in this story, concerning the Phillistines' wanton and purposeless clogging of water wells drilled by Abraham (link):

$1:
When Isaac planted in that land, he reaped in the same year a hundred times what he had sown, because the LORD blessed him. The man became wealthy. His influence continued to grow until he became very prominent. He had so many sheep and cattle and such a great household of servants that the Philistines became jealous of him. So the Philistines took dirt and filled up all the wells that his father’s servants had dug back in the days of his father Abraham.

Then Abimelech (king of the Philistines) said to Isaac, “Leave us and go elsewhere, for you have become much more powerful than we are.” So Isaac left there and settled in the Gerar Valley.

Isaac reopened the wells that had been dug back in the days of his father Abraham, for the Philistines had stopped them up after Abraham died. Isaac gave these wells the same names his father had given them
One wonders, in a desert environment, why the Phillistines ruined the wells rather than using them. Then, plowing planes into buildings never made much sense.Some people enjoyed destruction for its own sake then, and still do.

During the pre-Muslim era, the wanton and vicious habits of the desert people of the area from Egypt through Saudi Arabia is well known, and memorialized in the oral history contained in the Bible. The stories of Sodom and Gomorrah, of the binding of Isaac (by negative implication the ritual child sacrifice among neighboring peoples), the purposeless plugging with sand of water wells dug by Abraham and Isaac are but some examples. The wickedness and idolatry prevalant in these areas, along with sexual perversion and violence, existed well before Islam and the fault for them must be laid at the door, not of Islam, but of local "cultures".

Islam's extremely violent start is also well known. Their virtually unhindered spread from the Mecca area to the Atlantic and to the borders of modern India occurred largely at the point of a sword. There were, during those early years, some constructive developments. In many areas, intellectually, they were ahead of Europe, then in the "Dark Ages". They were more tolerant of Jews and Christians than Christians were of Jews and Muslims. At least "dhimmitude" allowed survival, under conditions of degradation and financial servitude.

Their predatory habits on the trade of other peoples is also well-known. One of the great impetuses for the development of shipping was the need to avoid travel through mortally dangerous Muslim lands en route to the Far East. Later, the Barbary Coast pirates and pirates off modern-day Somalia, all Musims, made theft from Europeans (and eventually Americans) and the "white slave" trade an art form. Then as now, it took the Americasns to crack down rather than pay tribute.

Since then, the Barbary Coast Pirates have morphed into OPEC (all of the money benefits the rulers, not the people), the UN, and disaster-milking. Remeber those pitiful faces on ads for charities after the Indonesia tsunami and the Pakistan earthquake? How much rebuilding do you think has really happened? Then as now, there are producers, and there are extorters and takers. After the Holocaust, an undisputed atrocity, its victims picked themselves up, and are now valuable contributors to the world wherever they live.

Did (do) they have cause to be "angry" with the butchers that killed 6,000,000 of them? Where are their suicide bombers? Where are the Americans attacking bazaars in Araby after September 11? Where's the anger of the non-Muslim world against Muslims? Instead of anger, you see the Michael Moores of the world prattling about "negotiations".

Amazing, the world hasn't changed. And therritorial concessions and self-endangerment are expected only of the West.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 12:29 pm
 


Good post.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 12:44 pm
 


BartSimpson BartSimpson:
Good post.

At least someone agrees with me on this issue.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 12:52 pm
 


JBG JBG:
Where are the Americans attacking bazaars in Araby after September 11?


Truth be told, we did far more than that to them. :D

Let's hope the vermin remember that, too.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 5:57 pm
 


Is vermin a reference to all Arabs?


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 6:29 pm
 


ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:
Is vermin a reference to all Arabs?

I didn't use that term. I happen to have great admiration for the accomplishments of the Arabs and Muslims.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 6:31 pm
 


I didn't say you did. I was referencing the post prior to mine.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 6:40 pm
 


JBG JBG:
BartSimpson BartSimpson:
Good post.

At least someone agrees with me on this issue.

R=UP [BB]
More than one person agrees with you.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 6:53 pm
 


If you really think that Hebrews can't be dangerously aggressive in their own right, even up to the point of being downright genocidal, then do a head count of all the Moabites, Midianites, and Amelekites still living in the region and see if your numbers come close to exceeding zero. I fully support the right of a democratic Israel to defend itself, but to suggest that the Israelis (as a government) are 100% innocent of any of the tensions over there is laughable. I see no problem with them building a border fence to keep out suicide bombers, but I see a huge problem with them confiscating all the arable farmland in the West Bank from Arab families that have also lived there for centuries in order to give the best of the available resources to a bunch of trouble-making and ultra-bigotted Orthodox settlers. Fair's fair, and what's wrong for a Muslim to do is just as equally wrong for a Jew to do.

Unless, of course, this is all a pretext for an agreement among the more religious members of the forum on how the Hebrews are the chosen of God and therefore they can do what they want whenever they want to whoever they want. At that point, if that is the reason for this thread, then there's no real reason for the non-religious to continue participating in it.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 7:03 pm
 


Thanos Thanos:
If you really think that Hebrews can't be dangerously aggressive in their own right, even up to the point of being downright genocidal, then do a head count of all the Moabites, Midianites, and Amelekites still living in the region and see if your numbers come close to exceeding zero. I fully support the right of a democratic Israel to defend itself, but to suggest that the Israelis (as a government) are 100% innocent of any of the tensions over there is laughable. I see no problem with them building a border fence to keep out suicide bombers, but I see a huge problem with them confiscating all the arable farmland in the West Bank from Arab families that have also lived there for centuries in order to give the best of the available resources to a bunch of trouble-making and ultra-bigotted Orthodox settlers. Fair's fair, and what's wrong for a Muslim to do is just as equally wrong for a Jew to do.

Unless, of course, this is all a pretext for an agreement among the more religious members of the forum on how the Hebrews are the chosen of God and therefore they can do what they want whenever they want to whoever they want. At that point, if that is the reason for this thread, then there's no real reason for the non-religious to continue participating in it.

True, there are time Israel hasn't had clean hands dealing with their neighbours. What doesn't help is when the American government blindly supports any Israeli action which is ALWAYS.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 7:58 pm
 


GreenTiger GreenTiger:
Thanos Thanos:
I see no problem with them building a border fence to keep out suicide bombers, but I see a huge problem with them confiscating all the arable farmland in the West Bank from Arab families that have also lived there for centuries in order to give the best of the available resources to a bunch of trouble-making and ultra-bigotted Orthodox settlers. Fair's fair, and what's wrong for a Muslim to do is just as equally wrong for a Jew to do.

True, there are time Israel hasn't had clean hands dealing with their neighbours. What doesn't help is when the American government blindly supports any Israeli action which is ALWAYS.

On the other hand the Arabs had a long time before that started happening to seek peace. At some point the prevailing power has the right to start acting as victor, when the vanquished refuse to acknowledge the need to make peace that accepts Israel as a fact.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 11:35 pm
 


A victor that behaves like they're in the 21st century and not the 12th would be preferable as well. It's not like some basic magnanimity from the winner towards the beaten is too difficult to contemplate. Or to put into practice either.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 11:45 pm
 


Thanos Thanos:
A victor that behaves like they're in the 21st century and not the 12th would be preferable as well. It's not like some basic magnanimity from the winner towards the beaten is too difficult to contemplate. Or to put into practice either.

Isn't that what the british did to/for the french after the plains of Abraham?


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 11:49 pm
 


Yeah, but that was the 18th century, not today. Today's victors should possess today's standards, not the ones of a past we should all be moving away from as quickly as possible.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 11:52 pm
 


I dunno, I'm actually kind of thinking the limeys may have got it right. For all of our troubles with Quebec, don't you think most Israelis would give their left arm to have the palestinians behave the way the quebecois do?


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