[Abbas]

TattoodGirl TattoodGirl:

Firecat Firecat:

TattoodGirl TattoodGirl:

hwacker hwacker:

TattoodGirl TattoodGirl:

you never know who might be a relative or friend of some of the Women....Thanks

Sorry sweety, But how would that change what they do?

You can't sugar coat that i'm affraid.

Im not sugar coating it.....just saying that whore is very derogatory that's all....in fact if someone feels they need to be a prostitute to make money thats their choice......just a job after all.....oldest profession right?

Go easy on hwacker. Maybe his mother is a whore and that's what he calls her.

Hey I wasnt personally attacking hwacker, just giving him some feedback thats all.

lol, so it seems its not only me that enjoys damaging his self esteem. I am sorry hwacker but seriously dude, its time to change. I really want to have a discussion with you in a civil manner but you wont budge. come onnnnn, I will buy you some e-candy

[Abbas]

$1:

So it's alright to beat a woman as long as they have some restraint? Does the Quran really say this?

I would like to copy/paste a article by a Muslim sister, she is a women and she would understand the pain better then anybody so here you have it, its long to bear with me please:

By: Fatimah Khaldoon

Domestic violence represented by wife beating or abuse is rampant in this country and around the world. While the exact numbers on domestic violence incidents differ, because this is such an under-reported crime there are statistics on which most experts agree.

1. In 1984 the US Surgeon General declared domestic violence as this nation's number one health problem. (US Surgeon General)

2. A woman is beaten every 15 seconds by her partner; it happens at some time in 25-35 % of American homes; 4,000 women die from such abuse each year. (FBI)

3. Physical abuse by male social partners is the single most common source of injury among women ages 15 to 44, more common than auto accidents, muggings and rape by a stranger combined. (U.S. Surgeon General, 1989)

4. In USA, medical costs from domestic violence total at least $3-5 billion annually. At least another $100 million can be added to the cost to businesses in lost wages, sick leave and absenteeism. (Sylvia Porter, For Your Money's Worth)

5.Women of all cultures, races, occupations, income levels, and ages are battered - by husbands, boyfriends, lovers and partners. (Surgeon General Antonia Novello, as quoted in Domestic Violence: Battered Women, publication of the Reference Department of the Cambridge Public Library, Cambridge, MA)

6.Approximately one-third of the men counseled (for battering) at Emerge are professional men who are well respected in their jobs and their communities. these have included doctors, psychologists, lawyers, ministers, and business executives. (For Shelter and Beyond, Massachusetts Coalition of Battered Women Service Groups, Boston, MA 1990)

Statistics as these should awaken all those in denial of the fact that wife beating and abuse is an endemic disease in all different cultures, religions and communities. It is as common in Western as it is in Eastern societies.

Men in Western (and Eastern) societies do not abuse their wives because of scriptural teachings, but because of a natural instinct of domination and aggression. God, knowing this, has therefore decreed a perfect law to help men control their temper and to solve any problems before resorting to physical aggression.

These statistics reflect the failure of modern societies in treating this perilous condition in men. Despite advances in modern psychology and improved understanding of behavioral patterns of men, civilized and uncivilized, a successful solution to this aggressive behavior has not been found by man.

A solution has however been presented to the world in the Quran, the Final Testament, more than 1400 years ago, in verse 4:34.

[4:34] The men are made responsible for the women, and GOD has endowed them with certain qualities, and made them the bread earners. The righteous women will cheerfully accept this arrangement, since it is GOD's commandment, and honor their husbands during their absence. If you experience rebellion from the women, you shall first talk to them, then (you may use negative incentives like) deserting them in bed, then you may (as a last alternative) beat them. If they obey you, you are not permitted to transgress against them. GOD is Most High, Supreme.

At first glance this verse may appear as if promoting physical abuse of women. But when reading 4:34 carefully one realizes that it actually prohibits abuse and beating of women by using the best psychological approach.

The advise to first talk and then avoid sexual contact, provides the necessary time and space for both parties to cool off, reason, examine the problem and reach a favorable agreement for both of them.

Abuse of a wife will not happen if the man learns to follow the clear commandments of God in this verse and in the order decreed. Abuse will only happen when a man does not follow these commandments, and thus fails to cool off and reason with himself or with his wife.

Sura 4, where we read 4:34, entitled "The Women," is one of the longest chapters in the Quran. It deals with many of the rights and responsibilities of women, rights that were first available to western women only a few decades ago, and some that still aren't. The theme of this Sura is to defend women's rights, and countering injustice and oppression of women. Thus, any interpretation of verses in Sura 4 must be in favor of the women, not the other way around.

Unfortunately 4:34 is extremely abused by many of the so-called "Muslim" men in the world. While disregarding their own obligations and their own righteousness, these men only focus on the third step of handling this difficult condition as described in 4:34, skip the first two necessary steps and give themselves the excuse to beat their wives. They find support for their misguided and biased views, and for treating their spouses unjustly, in the fabrications of the so called Hadith and Sunna. They thus misrepresent the true Islam (Submission), and divert people from this perfect and just religion for all.

We have to remember that the right given to the man in 4:34, can only be claimed when you have a situation with a righteous man on one hand dealing with a situation in which his wife repeatedly commits "Neshooz" which is an unrighteous, wicked and rebellious act. Abusing this law and the attempt to apply it to regular daily marital disagreements is not warranted by the strong and selective wording of the verse. Furthermore, for a man to demand or claim this right, he must first give that woman all the rights God has given her and follow all aspects of the commandment without skipping any part of it. God clearly says in the Quran that He has decreed for the men and the women rights and obligations equitably (2:228).

In reality, a believing husband would most probably NEVER come to the stage where he would actually lay a hand on his wife. He would be much too careful to examine his own motives first, as a God fearing man, before exercising this right. As we see in the verse immediately following 4:34, when the marriage reaches this stage it's on it's way to end, as the very next words in the Quran reads; "If a couple fears separation…"

Most women in the world today do not enjoy the protection verse 4:34 grants them. Instead they are unjustly abused, verbally and physically, by unrighteous men in unrighteous ways, and get beaten up for the most trivial of reasons, or for no reason at all. According to 4:34 even if the husband has a good reason, he is not allowed to lay a hand on his wife until he has passed all the previous steps.

The woman's responsibility in a marriage starts the day she chooses a husband. If she wants to enjoy her God given rights, she must obey her God given commands, and choose a believing husband. Thus, she can expect from him to treat her in accordance with God's decree, and not transgress against her. She can expect from a believing husband that he will heed any reminder she gives him, if he forgets. If she chooses to disregard God's commands, she has to know that there will be consequences.

If women expect the men's deeds to have consequences, they should expect the same for themselves. These consequences are however well controlled to protect the women from the outrage of the angry husbands as we can find in God's law for the believers in 4:34.

We also learn that one of the traits of the righteous is that they suppress anger.

[3:134] "…They are suppressors of anger, and pardoners of the people. GOD loves the charitable."

The nature and essence of a healthy relationship between a husband and wife is beautifully expressed in the following verse from the Quran:

[ 30:21] Among His proofs is that He created for you spouses from among yourselves, in order to have tranquility and contentment with each other, and He placed in your hearts love and care towards your spouses. In this, there are sufficient proofs for people who think.

[3:195 ]"Their Lord responded to them: "I never fail to reward any worker among you for any work you do, be you MALE OR FEMALE, YOU ARE EQUAL TO ONE ANOTHER........."

When facing difficult times, even if the man dislikes his wife, God has decreed;

[4:19] O you who believe, it is not lawful for you to inherit what the women leave behind, against their will. You shall not force them to give up anything you had given them, unless they commit a proven adultery. You shall treat them nicely. If you dislike them, you may dislike something wherein GOD has placed a lot of good.

And when divorce happens, the full respect to the wife is urged,

[2:229] Divorce may be retracted twice. The divorced woman shall be allowed to live in the same home amicably, or leave it amicably. It is not lawful for the husband to take back anything he had given her. However, the couple may fear that they may transgress GOD's law. If there is fear that they may transgress GOD's law, they commit no error if the wife willingly gives back whatever she chooses. These are GOD's laws; do not transgress them. Those who transgress GOD's laws are the unjust.

In conclusion; A BELIEVING wife and a BELIEVING husband will NEVER get to the point where beating of the wife enters the picture. A BELIEVING couple will consult one another and agree on the best way to solve their differences as verse 4:34 and the whole scripture recommends.

We have to know that we are not in this world to protect unrighteous behavior. We are in this world to be given a last chance to make the right choice and submit to God alone. Making the wrong choices will have consequences for all of us, both in this world and in the eternal Hereafter, for women and men equally.

God is the Most Just, the Most Merciful.

Link: http://www.submission.org/women/beating.html

I hope this answers your questions.

[Abbas]

lily lily:

Good post, Abbas.

Thank You, as long as it clears up something that you may have seen differently in the past, I have done my job.

[canucker]

I appreciate the article, but I don't necessarily agree with it.

$1:

Men in Western (and Eastern) societies do not abuse their wives because of scriptural teachings, but because of a natural instinct of domination and aggression. God, knowing this, has therefore decreed a perfect law to help men control their temper and to solve any problems before resorting to physical aggression.

These statistics reflect the failure of modern societies in treating this perilous condition in men. Despite advances in modern psychology and improved understanding of behavioral patterns of men, civilized and uncivilized, a successful solution to this aggressive behavior has not been found by man.

The article makes men sound weak, and not in control of themselves, which is bullshit, IMO. I can see how alot of men would use that verse as an excuse to beat his wife in order to control her.

Yes, in all cultures there is abuse of women. But I don't hear of many Christians using the bible as a reason or explaination.

But does this apply to other family member? A daughter, a sister for example?

[Abbas]

canucker canucker:

I appreciate the article, but I don't necessarily agree with it.

$1:

Men in Western (and Eastern) societies do not abuse their wives because of scriptural teachings, but because of a natural instinct of domination and aggression. God, knowing this, has therefore decreed a perfect law to help men control their temper and to solve any problems before resorting to physical aggression.

These statistics reflect the failure of modern societies in treating this perilous condition in men. Despite advances in modern psychology and improved understanding of behavioral patterns of men, civilized and uncivilized, a successful solution to this aggressive behavior has not been found by man.

The article makes men sound weak, and not in control of themselves, which is bullshit, IMO. I can see how alot of men would use that verse as an excuse to beat his wife in order to control her.

Yes, in all cultures there is abuse of women. But I don't hear of many Christians using the bible as a reason or explaination.

But does this apply to other family member? A daughter, a sister for example?

Different rules for different people in the family. I have no clue about daughter since I am not a father myself however, for sisters, we are to treat them as we would our mothers so I hope that clears it all up. I do have sisters in my family and yes they have received a few slaps to the face in the past as I have but only after we were old enough to take a lesson from the "slap", not take it as abusive and consider it hatred. Islam, teaches a parent to use LIMITED force on their child so he/she may understand that you are in control and you make the choice for them. Of course, this applies to a child, not an adult. Also, it is very important that the beating to your children isn't meant to harm them or abuse them in any way. Blood or bruises are strictly prohibited in Islam, only a couple of slaps are allowed. My opinion, I cannot disagree since I have gotten alot of slaps lol, but I have also received more then enough love from my parents. I know they hit me because I had done something extreme and it needed to stop right then and it did.

[Abbas]

lily lily:

I don't think I'd go that far either - most men aren't abusers, and a lot of women are.

Doesn't testosterone play a role though?

Yes, it certainly does and thats what people mean when they ask someone you got "balls". It basically gives a man more energy then needed so if he is "happy", he is really happy and if he is "mad", he is really mad. This is what I've heard, I have not studied on the subject.

[Abbas]

lily lily:

$1:

I do have sisters in my family and yes they have received a few slaps to the face in the past as I have but only after we were old enough to take a lesson from the "slap", not take it as abusive and consider it hatred.

Faces should never be slapped.

Ever.

That's meant to humiliate, not punish.

I agree but humiliation means little to a 7 8 year old kid lol. My father has never laided a hand on my sisters after that age, because its culture and religion, I believe.

[canucker]

Seems like a excuse to me... blame it all on men's balls.

[Abbas]

canucker canucker:

Seems like a excuse to me... blame it all on men's balls.

Haha, it was more of a generalization of all men, not just Muslim men. Oh, shit, I am not sure if this is a joke or not and I am not sure whether its for me or lily but I will answer it anyways .

Its not a excuse, its just a interesting fact.

[canucker]

It is. But using the verse as an excuse to beat up on a woman is wrong IMO. I'm sure there are many who believe it is their right to do so.

No matter how much testosterone a man has, it's no excuse for violence.

[canucker]

lily lily:

No, it's not. But Koran, Bible or some tv show - the sort of "man" who would beat his wife will use any excuse.

Touche. (imagine the accent)

[thefactremains]

I know pastors that WENT TO JAIL, did christianity, keepthem out?..NOPE.

[Ripcat]

lily lily:

$1:

No matter how much testosterone a man has, it's no excuse for violence.

No, it's not. But Koran, Bible or some tv show - the sort of "man" who would beat his wife will use any excuse.

And I'm sure women have been so blinded by the Koran and Bible that they stay with an abusive husband. Where are the scriptures that say a woman must not stay with an abusive husband. Where are the verses that say a human is a human is a human and no one is to raise a hand against another.

In Canada we have come far beyond the religious texts to protect ourselves and our fellow humans. Qudos to the foundation that religion has given us but its time to continue moving forward and to continue developing Canada's law to protect all good humans without religion holding us down.

[Abbas]

$1:

beyond the religious texts to protect ourselves and our fellow humans. Qudos to the foundation that religion has given us but its time to continue moving forward and to continue developing Canada's law to protect all good humans without religion holding us down.

I agree, in Islam a women can choose to divorce their man for whenever they feel threatened. I hate to make you read another article of the same context as the last article but this one is more based on divorce then women's rights:

I seek refuge in GOD, from Satan the rejected

In the name of GOD, Most Gracious and Most Merciful

From a reading of the Quran we learn that God does not favour divorces and in fact encourages the continuation of marriage. God has imposed prohibitions on certain category in marriage. However for those who comes to know of these prohibitions afterwards are commanded not to break existing marriages - see 4:22-23.

Divorce must be resorted to only in exceptional circumstances. The laws relating to divorce together with the relevant verses from the Quran are given below:

Appoint an arbitrator

[4:35]

If a couple fears separation, you shall appoint an arbitrator from his family and an arbitrator from her family; if they decide to reconcile, GOD will help them get together. GOD is Omniscient, Cognizant.

Wait 4 months cooling off before divorce

[2:226-227]

Those who intend to divorce their wives shall wait four months (cooling off); if they change their minds and reconcile, then GOD is Forgiver, Merciful. If they go through with the divorce, then GOD is Hearer, Knower.

If the estranged couple chooses separation they must go through with it equitably. There must be two equitable witnesses witness the divorce before GOD

[65:2]

Once the interim is fulfilled, you may reconcile with them equitably, or go through with the separation equitably. You shall have two equitable witnesses witness the divorce before GOD. This is to enlighten those who believe in GOD and the Last Day. Anyone who reverences GOD, He will create an exit for him.

Divorced women to observe an interim period

[2:228]

The divorced women shall wait three menstruations (before marrying another man). It is not lawful for them to conceal what GOD creates in their wombs, if they believe in GOD and the Last Day. (In case of pregnancy,) the husband's wishes shall supersede the wife's wishes, if he wants to remarry her. The women have rights, as well as obligations, equitably. Thus, the man's wishes prevail (in case of pregnancy). GOD is Almighty, Most Wise.

[65:4-5]

As for the women who have reached menopause, if you have any doubts, their interim shall be three months. As for those who do not menstruate, and discover that they are pregnant, their interim ends upon giving birth. Anyone who reverences GOD, He makes everything easy for him. This is GOD's command that He sends down to you. Anyone who reverences GOD, He remits his sins, and rewards him generously.

Exception for observing interim period

[33:49]

O you who believe, if you married believing women, then divorced them before having intercourse with them, they do not owe you any waiting interim (before marrying another man). You shall compensate them equitably, and let them go amicably.

After the fulfilment of the interim the divorced women is free to do whatever she wants

Although the following verse is in context of widows, it appears to be applicable to a divorcees too.

You Shall Observe the Pre-Marriage Interims

[2:234]

Those who die and leave wives, their widows shall wait four months and ten days (before they remarry). Once they fulfill their interim, you commit no error by letting them do whatever righteous matters they wish to do. GOD is fully Cognizant of everything you do.

[2:235]

You commit no sin by announcing your engagement to the women, or keeping it secret. GOD knows that you will think about them. Do not meet them secretly, unless you have something righteous to discuss. Do not consummate the marriage until their interim is fulfilled. You should know that GOD knows your innermost thoughts, and observe Him. You should know that GOD is Forgiver, Clement.

Divorced women have to be provided for. This is probably one of the abused laws in the Quran. But God holds us responsible for our innermost thoughts. If one observes God’s laws then God makes it easy for him / her.

[65:7]

The rich husband shall provide support in accordance with his means, and the poor shall provide according to the means that GOD bestowed upon him. GOD does not impose on any soul more than He has given it. GOD will provide ease after difficulty.

Alimony For Widows and Divorcees

[2:240]

Those who die and leave wives, a will shall provide their wives with support for a year, provided they stay within the same household. If they leave, you commit no sin by letting them do whatever they wish, so long as righteousness is maintained. GOD is Almighty, Most Wise.

[2:241]

The divorcees also shall be provided for, equitably. This is a duty upon the righteous.

Compensation when marriage is not consummated

Breaking the Engagement

[2:236]

You commit no error by divorcing the women before touching them, or before setting the dowry for them. In this case, you shall compensate them - the rich as he can afford and the poor as he can afford - an equitable compensation. This is a duty upon the righteous.

[2:237]

If you divorce them before touching them, but after you had set the dowry for them, the compensation shall be half the dowry, unless they voluntarily forfeit their rights, or the party responsible for causing the divorce chooses to forfeit the dowry. To forfeit is closer to righteousness. You shall maintain the amicable relations among you. GOD is Seer of everything you do.

Divorced women entitled to stay in the same house she stayed before divorce

Do Not Throw the Divorcees Out Onto the Streets

[2:231]

If you divorce the women, once they fulfill their interim (three menstruations), you shall allow them to live in the same home amicably, or let them leave amicably. Do not force them to stay against their will, as a revenge. Anyone who does this wrongs his own soul. Do not take GOD's revelations in vain. Remember GOD's blessings upon you, and that He sent down to you the scripture and wisdom to enlighten you. You shall observe GOD, and know that GOD is aware of all things.

[65:6]

You shall allow them to live in the same home in which they lived with you, and do not make life so miserable for them that they leave on their own. If they are pregnant, you shall spend on them until they give birth. If they nurse the infant, you shall pay them for this service. You shall maintain the amicable relations among you. If you disagree, you may hire another woman to nurse the child.

Divorce can be retracted twice: In other words, if the couple reconciles after the first divorce and wish to be husband and wife again, they can re-marry. This is allowed for two divorce only. If the couple divorces third time they have to observe God's commandment in 2:230 (quoted below.) God makes it not-so-easy for the couple to divorce. This law serves as a deterrent for those who want a divorce for the third time and they would be very careful to take this step.

[2:229]

Divorce may be retracted twice. The divorced woman shall be allowed to live in the same home amicably, or leave it amicably. It is not lawful for the husband to take back anything he had given her. However, the couple may fear that they may transgress GOD's law. If there is fear that they may transgress GOD's law, they commit no error if the wife willingly gives back whatever she chooses. These are GOD's laws; do not transgress them. Those who transgress GOD's laws are the unjust.

[2:232]

If you divorce the women, once they fulfill their interim, do not prevent them from remarrying their husbands, if they reconcile amicably. This shall be heeded by those among you who believe in GOD and the Last Day. This is purer for you, and more righteous. GOD knows, while you do not know.

[2:230]

If he divorces her (for the third time), it is unlawful for him to remarry her, unless she marries another man, then he divorces her. The first husband can then remarry her, so long as they observe GOD's laws. These are GOD's laws; He explains them for people who know.

Also note the words "It is not lawful for the husband to take back anything he had given her." in 2:229.

In case there is a baby during the interim: If during the observation of the interim period it is discovered that the divorced women is pregnant then as stated in 65:4 the interim ends upon giving birth. God has decreed the following law dealing with the infant:

[2:233]

Divorced mothers shall nurse their infants two full years, if the father so wishes. The father shall provide the mother's food and clothing equitably. No one shall be burdened beyond his ability. No mother shall be harmed on account of her infant, nor shall the father be harmed because of his infant. (If the father dies), his inheritor shall assume these responsibilities. If the infant's parents mutually agree to part, after due consultation, they commit no error by doing so. You commit no error by hiring nursing mothers, so long as you pay them equitably. You shall observe GOD, and know that GOD is Seer of everything you do.

Under what conditions can a woman divorce her husband.?

Whichever party chooses for divorce must obey the laws as aforesaid. Normally divorce is mutually decided by the couple. If the aforesaid laws are observed, there could be a situation where either of the spouse may not give their consent but if the arbitrators from both the families decide that divorce is the best solution for the estranged couple then they would, nevertheless go through divorce. The divorce laws are applicable to both man and woman (4:35 and 2:237 indicate this) except that there are certain additional laws which a divorced woman has to observe.

The following seem to be the only conditions where a believing women leaves her husband without observing the above laws. In fact, I think in this case even a formal divorce is not required under Quran. However if the law of the land requires a formal divorce then one must follow suit.

In Case of War

[60:10]

O you who believe, when believing women (abandon the enemy and) ask for asylum with you, you shall test them. GOD is fully aware of their belief. Once you establish that they are believers, you shall not return them to the disbelievers. They are not lawful to remain married to them, nor shall the disbelievers be allowed to marry them. Give back the dowries that the disbelievers have paid. You commit no error by marrying them, so long as you pay them their due dowries. Do not keep disbelieving wives (if they wish to join the enemy). You may ask them for the dowry you had paid, and they may ask for what they paid. This is GOD's rule; He rules among you. GOD is Omniscient, Most Wise.

May God bless and be with you

Salma Noor El-Deen.

[thefactremains]

what if its 2 guys married to each other? (just kills it,lol)