[Freakinoldguy]

I'm old enough to remember that when the EU was set up it was originally as nothing more than a free trade zone, not the giant conglomerate of vassal states owing their allegiance to an unelected new Royalty situated in Brussels which is what we see today.

So, given it's humble beginning. How did this experiment in free trade and open borders go so far off the rails to actually turn into a form of dictatorship by an elite few?

[N_Fiddledog]

Hey, what happened to the BBC? They flipped to the good guys side.

Viewpoint: Brexit puts UK on new economic path

Apparently Britain is not going to join the 3rd world after all.

[N_Fiddledog]

[andyt]

You're discounting the European Parliament which is elected. It's not all run by bureaucrats.

It went off the rails because they thought they could create the United States of Europe but also have sovereign nations within this union. Since there's no way the nations would cede sovereignty to this super state, they should have backed off and just kept it as a free trade zone. They should have seen what kind of problems having the Euro would create. Bureaucrats determining the size of carrots - big deal. Free movement of labor should in theory be a plus, but maybe limit it to higher skilled jobs, not semi-skilled where you just get people flooding in from the poorer countries. Or just put some brakes on it, ie not free movement, but easy to get visas where labor shortages exist.

It was a dream that came out of the horrors of the War. Nice try, but just a bit too much too fast. The US almost blew apart their union, and that was with people speaking the same language and originally identifying as one country.

[Freakinoldguy]

andyt andyt:

You're discounting the European Parliament which is elected. It's not all run by bureaucrats.

It went off the rails because they thought they could create the United States of Europe but also have sovereign nations within this union. Since there's no way the nations would cede sovereignty to this super state, they should have backed off and just kept it as a free trade zone. They should have seen what kind of problems having the Euro would create. Bureaucrats determining the size of carrots - big deal. Free movement of labor should in theory be a plus, but maybe limit it to higher skilled jobs, not semi-skilled where you just get people flooding in from the poorer countries. Or just put some brakes on it, ie not free movement, but easy to get visas where labor shortages exist.

It was a dream that came out of the horrors of the War. Nice try, but just a bit too much too fast. The US almost blew apart their union, and that was with people speaking the same language and originally identifying as one country.

Have you taken a look at the European Parliament? Given it's makeup and mandate it's amazing anything ever got done. But, that's not where the real power lies. It appears that the Parliament is nothing more than a giant group grope designed to give the whole house of cards an air of legitimacy.

But, with that being said your explanation is probably the best one I've heard yet and it's apparent that I'm not the only one who remembers what the Unions original intent was.

[Freakinoldguy]

0:

13529197_653862841434205_3250579492864240791_n.jpg [ 29.47 KiB | Viewed 2045 times ]

[Thanos]

Looks like the lacklustre Corbyn will be the next casualty of the vote result.

http://www.rawstory.com/2016/06/labour- ... exit-vote/

$1:

Another Labour MP, Graham Jones, said: “Vast swathes of white working-class voters, particularly north of the Trent, turned their backs on our message and our leader.

“I want a damn good explanation from Jeremy Corbyn as to why we ended up in this mess. If I am not satisfied, I will support the motion.”

Where's Tony Blair when you need him?

[N_Fiddledog]

Oh oh.

$1:

Carswell and Hannan Freeze Out Farage, Say They WON’T Lower Immigration


Tory establishment Vote Leave’s Douglas Carswell plans to try to freeze out UKIP leader Nigel Farage from the post-Brexit cross-party negotiations, with Daniel Hannan stating that the official Leave campaign never promised British voters an end to uncontrolled immigration from the European Union (EU).
Just one day after the referendum on Britain’s membership of the EU, Member of Parliament (MP) Douglas Carswell stated that UKIP leader and long-time Brexit campaigner Nigel Farage would not be invited to the cross-party committee which will negotiate Britain’s exit from the EU.

And later the same day Mr. Carswell’s colleague at Vote Leave, Daniel Hannan, stated that he only ever said that Britain would have ‘”some” control over the numbers of migrants entering the country upon leaving the EU, commenting: “Frankly, if people watching think that they have voted and there is now going to be zero immigration from the EU, they are going to be disappointed.”

Speaking to Sky on the morning of Friday 24 June, Mr. Carswell, who defected from the Conservative party to UKIP two years ago, was asked if his party’s leader would be engaged in the post-Brexit negotiations to which he responded:

“With great respect, Nigel Farage was never part of Vote Leave. The detailed thought we gave that now needs to happen has to come from the people who lead the official campaign.”

It was then on the 25th that that ‘great respect’ turned to derision when he tweeted in reaction to an article in The Telegraph: “Brexit is going to be a process. It will be overseen by serious people, with a serious plan. Gove, Hannan, Grayling.”

Brexit is going to be a process. It will be overseen by serious people, with a serious plan. Gove, Hannan, Grayling. https://t.co/wtmuXeBMzp

— Douglas Carswell MP (@DouglasCarswell) June 25, 2016

Mr. Farage, who is a Member of the European Parliament (MEP), intended to use his position as head of the UKIP group in the parliament to ensure he had input on the terms negotiated for Britain’s exit from the EU. However, senior Vote Leave sources on Friday told The Telegraph that Mr. Farage would not be invited to join the proposed cross-party committee.

The UKIP leader, without whom the referendum would never have taken place, and indeed never been won, responded: “I have tried for nearly a year to work with these people and fight on a common agenda and they don’t want to know.”

And on Newsnight Conservative MEP Mr. Hannan admitted that following negotiations, Britain would still allow free movement of what he termed “labour” from the EU. Mr. Hannan attempted to separate the concepts of “free movement of people” from “free movement of labour” in his envisaging of a post-Brexit “common market but without the political integration”.

He finally evoked the ire of host Evan Davis who interrupted him demanding clarification between the two, then implying that the official Leave campaign had mislead British voters on their pledge to end uncontrolled immigration from the EU:

“Your campaign has given voters the impression that we will not be able to get immigration down to the tens of thousands if we are in the EU. I think that gives most people the impression that we will get it down to the tens of thousands if we’re outside the EU… the public have been led to believe that what they voted for was an end to free movement.”

.@evanHD isn't happy with this potential change of tone on freedom of movement…#brexit #newsnight https://t.co/VKnfMz70ke

— BBC Newsnight (@BBCNewsnight) June 24, 2016

Mr. Hannan floundered: “Well, no. We want a measure of control…But I don’t think anyone has ever tried to put a number on it – that’s obviously going to depend on the state of the economy at the time.”

Vote Leave abandoned the economic case as their primary issue, after they conceded that immigration was the foremost concern pushing the British public into voting for Brexit — an argument that Mr. Farage has been making throughout the campaign.

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/06 ... migration/

[Thanos]

Wow, that was a faster than usual sell-out of a major victory. Might as well have a second referendum sooner than later and vote to stay if the leaders of Leave are already undermining the main reason they won.

[martin14]

Freakinoldguy Freakinoldguy:

So, given it's humble beginning. How did this experiment in free trade and open borders go so far off the rails to actually turn into a form of dictatorship by an elite few?

Germany.

[Sunnyways]

When the idea of a vote first came up I thought there would be a massive win for Leave, although rooting for the Remain side. The pollsters told us it would be close - we shouldn't ask too much more than that in such an inexact science.

Ashcroft has lots of interesting demographic differences between the two sides but in the middle there would be a lot of agreement. The EU is an imperfect institution, not a tyranny mind you, and poorer people have shouldered too much of the burden of immigration. I have mainly seen these changes in train stations because my relatives are lucky enough to live in leafy suburbs.

In or out, ordinary British people will face many of the same challenges over the next few decades. States will gradually lose sovereignty to multinationals and the oligarchs, and good jobs will continue to disappear.

[andyt]

N_Fiddledog N_Fiddledog:

Oh oh.

$1:

Carswell and Hannan Freeze Out Farage, Say They WON’T Lower Immigration


Tory establishment Vote Leave’s Douglas Carswell plans to try to freeze out UKIP leader Nigel Farage from the post-Brexit cross-party negotiations, with Daniel Hannan stating that the official Leave campaign never promised British voters an end to uncontrolled immigration from the European Union (EU).
Just one day after the referendum on Britain’s membership of the EU, Member of Parliament (MP) Douglas Carswell stated that UKIP leader and long-time Brexit campaigner Nigel Farage would not be invited to the cross-party committee which will negotiate Britain’s exit from the EU.

And later the same day Mr. Carswell’s colleague at Vote Leave, Daniel Hannan, stated that he only ever said that Britain would have ‘”some” control over the numbers of migrants entering the country upon leaving the EU, commenting: “Frankly, if people watching think that they have voted and there is now going to be zero immigration from the EU, they are going to be disappointed.”

Speaking to Sky on the morning of Friday 24 June, Mr. Carswell, who defected from the Conservative party to UKIP two years ago, was asked if his party’s leader would be engaged in the post-Brexit negotiations to which he responded:

“With great respect, Nigel Farage was never part of Vote Leave. The detailed thought we gave that now needs to happen has to come from the people who lead the official campaign.”

It was then on the 25th that that ‘great respect’ turned to derision when he tweeted in reaction to an article in The Telegraph: “Brexit is going to be a process. It will be overseen by serious people, with a serious plan. Gove, Hannan, Grayling.”

Brexit is going to be a process. It will be overseen by serious people, with a serious plan. Gove, Hannan, Grayling. https://t.co/wtmuXeBMzp

— Douglas Carswell MP (@DouglasCarswell) June 25, 2016

Mr. Farage, who is a Member of the European Parliament (MEP), intended to use his position as head of the UKIP group in the parliament to ensure he had input on the terms negotiated for Britain’s exit from the EU. However, senior Vote Leave sources on Friday told The Telegraph that Mr. Farage would not be invited to join the proposed cross-party committee.

The UKIP leader, without whom the referendum would never have taken place, and indeed never been won, responded: “I have tried for nearly a year to work with these people and fight on a common agenda and they don’t want to know.”

And on Newsnight Conservative MEP Mr. Hannan admitted that following negotiations, Britain would still allow free movement of what he termed “labour” from the EU. Mr. Hannan attempted to separate the concepts of “free movement of people” from “free movement of labour” in his envisaging of a post-Brexit “common market but without the political integration”.

He finally evoked the ire of host Evan Davis who interrupted him demanding clarification between the two, then implying that the official Leave campaign had mislead British voters on their pledge to end uncontrolled immigration from the EU:

“Your campaign has given voters the impression that we will not be able to get immigration down to the tens of thousands if we are in the EU. I think that gives most people the impression that we will get it down to the tens of thousands if we’re outside the EU… the public have been led to believe that what they voted for was an end to free movement.”

.@evanHD isn't happy with this potential change of tone on freedom of movement…#brexit #newsnight https://t.co/VKnfMz70ke

— BBC Newsnight (@BBCNewsnight) June 24, 2016

Mr. Hannan floundered: “Well, no. We want a measure of control…But I don’t think anyone has ever tried to put a number on it – that’s obviously going to depend on the state of the economy at the time.”

Vote Leave abandoned the economic case as their primary issue, after they conceded that immigration was the foremost concern pushing the British public into voting for Brexit — an argument that Mr. Farage has been making throughout the campaign.

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/06 ... migration/

[Batsy2]

andyt andyt:

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

When the mail-in ballots are counted tomorrow the Brexit will lose.

Entirely possible since the expats very much want to stay in the EU. Otherwise they will all have to come home, so that's and apparently some will even be stateless.

That's rubbish. Expats don't have to come home. Not only will EU countries not want to send British expats home because Britain could retaliate and send their expats back, but expats are protected under the 1969 Vienna Convention. Also, any countries who send home British expats could end up damaging their economies.

[martin14]

Thanos Thanos:

Wow, that was a faster than usual sell-out of a major victory. Might as well have a second referendum sooner than later and vote to stay if the leaders of Leave are already undermining the main reason they won.

Hannan is a member of Euro Parliament, and has zero authority.
Carswell is UKIP's only MP, has gone completely off the reservation, and wont be running
for UKIP next election.
My guess he will jump back from whence he came, the Tories.

The people to watch are Boris Johnson, Michael Gove, Theresa May.
The next PM of Britain.

If anyone of them starts talking about keeping freedom of movement,
the plebs and peasants will be very angry.

The rest of them are just shooting off their mouths.

[BartSimpson]

N_Fiddledog N_Fiddledog:

Oh oh.

$1:

Douglas Carswell

Looks like MP Carswell has called dibs on the grave next to Jo Cox. I hope the treasonous and arrogant fuck gets his wish.