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Should US gun laws be made more strict, less strict, or remain as they are?
More Strict  0%  [ 0 ]
Less Strict  0%  [ 0 ]
Remain as They Are  0%  [ 0 ]
Unsure  0%  [ 0 ]
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 7:53 am
 


Does gun control constitute crime control? Can the United States' rates of homicide, robbery, and assault be reduced by the stricter regulation of firearms or ownership? Would restrictions stop attacks on public figures or thwart deranged persons and terrorists? Would household, street corner, and schoolyard disputes be less lethal if firearms were more difficult and expensive to acquire? Would more restrictive gun control policies have the unintended effect of impairing citizens' means of self-defense?

Gun control advocates argue that they curb access by criminals, juveniles, and other "high-risk" individuals. They contend that only federal measures can successfully reduce the availability of guns.

Gun control opponents deny that federal policies keep firearms out of the hands of high-risk persons; instead, they argue, controls often create burdens for law-abiding citizens and infringe upon constitutional rights provided by the Second Amendment. Some argue further that widespread gun ownership is one of the best deterrents to crime as well as to potential tyranny, whether by gangs or by government.

Second Amendment states that "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed."

Is the Second Amendment out of touch with the times and being misinterpreted?


Last edited by canucker on Sat Apr 21, 2007 9:22 am, edited 4 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 8:00 am
 


To all questions, no.XD


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 10:02 am
 


The first huge mistake is entertaining the idea that the 2nd amendment is out of touch with the times. It never will be. The second mistake is the assumption that gun control is constitutional.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 10:40 am
 


Actually the first mistake is to take such a poll. It has been established long ago and no doubt posters will illistrate this with their posts----very few have enough knowledge of either Canadian or US firearms laws to make an informed decision.

I have just noted that although 5 have voted---no votes are recorded. Were the results not was desired????

On another site a poster was proving his case by producing the Firearms deaths per 10,000 for Canada the US and for Japan(which allows no civilian ownership of handguns). The thing this poster (perhaps) did not know was that these statistics were so obviously bogus---(indicated a very low rate for Japan). Japans has not released any statistics since the early nineties because they were so bad........

One of life's contradictions is that you need to be very informed to get informed. There are no end of charletons who will invent statistics, studies to further their agenda.

Indeed the biggest urban myth is the rumour that the US has a higher violent crime rate than Canada, while the reverse is true. The Gun-grabbers refer to 1980's stats prior to the wide-spread adoption of shall-carry legistlation (43 states).

:roll:


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 10:47 am
 


I'm not to sure about gun control myself, I certainly wouldn't have a problem with registering a fire-arm if I had one.

But if someone wants a gun I'm sure they can get one either way. I mean drug control tries, but if you want your drug of choice you can find it. I know I've never had a problem finding pot.

So I'm not to sure where I would stand on the subject.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 1:52 pm
 


canucker wrote:
Does gun control constitute crime control?

Did crime exsit before guns? Yes.

The answer is therefore, no.

canucker wrote:
robbery,


the robbery rate of the US is lower than that of the UK and Portugal, and almost 1/10th that of Spain.

canucker wrote:
assault be reduced by the stricter regulation of firearms or ownership?


Assault rates for the UK and former British colonies is as such:

#6 United States: 7.56923 per 1,000 people
#7 New Zealand: 7.47881 per 1,000 people
#8 United Kingdom: 7.45959 per 1,000 people
#9 Canada: 7.11834 per 1,000 people
#10 Australia: 7.02459 per 1,000 people

These countries differ widly in the presence of firearms. It seems assault and presence of firearms are uncorilated.


lily wrote:
People keep talking about having a gun for protection, and I've always wondered how protective they are. How many deaths/injuries occur in accidental shootings, i.e. kids playing with Daddy's gun, vs how many attacks were prevented because of the presence of a gun, i.e. an intruder thwarted because the home-owner pulled out his gun.


The problem is it's almost impossible to answer that question.

--Incidents where the mere sight of a gun detered a criminal are almost never reported.
--Incidents where a crime was prevented because the potential-criminal feared thier victim might have a gun are never reported.
--Accidents with guns are almost always reported (Emergency Room --> recorded).
--incidents where a person used a gun purely for self defense may not be recorded as such.
--It may not be clear if the gun was the deciding factor in preventing a crime.

There are ways to try to get around these problems, but most of them are very indirect and don't serve to close the debate.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 3:29 pm
 


Gun Control benefits us all more than Gun "Rights". The Proof is what happens everyday when comparing the US to Western Europe.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 4:31 pm
 


sandorski wrote:
Gun Control benefits us all more than Gun "Rights". The Proof is what happens everyday when comparing the US to Western Europe.


What happens when you compare Europe to the US is you compare apples to oranges.

"Europe" does not have gun control laws. *Some* European nations have stricter gun control laws than the US, while in other places it is no where nearly as strict. *Some* European nations virtually disallow private firearm ownership, while other *require* private firearm ownership.

Also, assuming a comparison can be made, you still have to take into account Canada, which has only marginally greater gun control than much of the US, and for some states like California, less.

Furthermore, *gun* violence is not so much a problem as violence in general is. Placing an emphasis on reducing gun violence seems to regard violence in general as less important, as long as it isn't committed with a firearm.

Violence and societal difficulties of any kind can be reduced by putting money toward both policing and mental health serices. These will, together, reduce crime and get those people in society who are unstable the help they need.

Guns may *seem* to be the problem but they arent. The problem is the *people* who wish to use them for crime and the *people* who are so mentally unstable as to not have control of themselves.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 8:11 pm
 


toothpick wrote:
sandorski wrote:
Gun Control benefits us all more than Gun "Rights". The Proof is what happens everyday when comparing the US to Western Europe.


What happens when you compare Europe to the US is you compare apples to oranges.

"Europe" does not have gun control laws. *Some* European nations have stricter gun control laws than the US, while in other places it is no where nearly as strict. *Some* European nations virtually disallow private firearm ownership, while other *require* private firearm ownership.

Also, assuming a comparison can be made, you still have to take into account Canada, which has only marginally greater gun control than much of the US, and for some states like California, less.

Furthermore, *gun* violence is not so much a problem as violence in general is. Placing an emphasis on reducing gun violence seems to regard violence in general as less important, as long as it isn't committed with a firearm.

Violence and societal difficulties of any kind can be reduced by putting money toward both policing and mental health serices. These will, together, reduce crime and get those people in society who are unstable the help they need.

Guns may *seem* to be the problem but they arent. The problem is the *people* who wish to use them for crime and the *people* who are so mentally unstable as to not have control of themselves.


Gun violence is more likely to result in death than other violence. That's why Guns are controlled.

You are correct that not all Western Europe is a homogeneous block of similar Gun Laws, but either way you'll see a significant decrease between US and Europe in Murder rates. Some of that is Cultural, but mostly it's the result of strict Gun Control.

You are wrong about Canada being only slightly stricter than the US though. The difference is very significant.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 9:09 pm
 


sandorski wrote:
Gun violence is more likely to result in death than other violence. That's why Guns are controlled.


This is oft-repeated but purely conjecture since there is absolutly no way to substantiate it. To do so you would need to not only know the number of incidents where each type of violence was used but the number of times said violence resulted in a fatality. Since the former goes completly unrecorded it's impossible to draw the conclution that gun violence is more deadly.

sandorski wrote:
You are correct that not all Western Europe is a homogeneous block of similar Gun Laws, but either way you'll see a significant decrease between US and Europe in Murder rates. Some of that is Cultural, but mostly it's the result of strict Gun Control.


The two are incomparable, you cannot draw any conclutions no matter which way you try to cut it. There are differences in the murder rates between the US and many European countries, but there are so many confounding variables that sorting out the reasons for that is impossible.

Trying to pin a statistic on a single variable assumes that that variable works in a vaccume and that all the other vairables in that country make no contribution to that statistic.

sandorski wrote:
You are wrong about Canada being only slightly stricter than the US though. The difference is very significant.


It depends on what state you're talking about, and what type of guns.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 10:41 pm
 


toothpick wrote:
sandorski wrote:
Gun violence is more likely to result in death than other violence. That's why Guns are controlled.


This is oft-repeated but purely conjecture since there is absolutly no way to substantiate it. To do so you would need to not only know the number of incidents where each type of violence was used but the number of times said violence resulted in a fatality. Since the former goes completly unrecorded it's impossible to draw the conclution that gun violence is more deadly.

sandorski wrote:
You are correct that not all Western Europe is a homogeneous block of similar Gun Laws, but either way you'll see a significant decrease between US and Europe in Murder rates. Some of that is Cultural, but mostly it's the result of strict Gun Control.


The two are incomparable, you cannot draw any conclutions no matter which way you try to cut it. There are differences in the murder rates between the US and many European countries, but there are so many confounding variables that sorting out the reasons for that is impossible.

Trying to pin a statistic on a single variable assumes that that variable works in a vaccume and that all the other vairables in that country make no contribution to that statistic.

sandorski wrote:
You are wrong about Canada being only slightly stricter than the US though. The difference is very significant.


It depends on what state you're talking about, and what type of guns.


It is easy to see the differences. There are plenty of statistics showing the truth.

Localized Gun Laws in the US are useless when anyone can travel short distances to easily acquire firearms.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 10:51 pm
 


sandorski wrote:
It is easy to see the differences. There are plenty of statistics showing the truth.


Don't ignore things because you don't like them. There are multiple confounding variables that make any attempt to pin the difference in murder rate between Europe and the US on a single set of gun control laws an excercise in myopia.

sandorski wrote:
Localized Gun Laws in the US are useless when anyone can travel short distances to easily acquire firearms.


Yes, criminals do it all the time. Usually they travel to the truck of someones car. Citzens who have a desire to follow the law are, however, restrained by gun control laws.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 11:12 pm
 


the only ppl who favor gun control are criminals and liberals...amazing how liberals go to bat for criminals yet dont give a rats behind about decent law abiding citizens


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 11:56 pm
 


toothpick wrote:
sandorski wrote:
Localized Gun Laws in the US are useless when anyone can travel short distances to easily acquire firearms.


Yes, criminals do it all the time. Usually they travel to the truck of someones car. Citzens who have a desire to follow the law are, however, restrained by gun control laws.


How are they so restrained? Because they may have to wait 10 days or so? Isn't it much easier for someone who's deranged to kill many people all at once with a gun than say with a knife or other weapon?


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