[ShepherdsDog]

BartSimpson wrote:

CommanderSock wrote:

I agree with Bart, he was certainly rational and logical.

He went to slaughter politically active left wing teenagers, and the "best and brightest" Norway's left has in terms of youth.

He wanted to cripple the future of the leftist movement of Norway. He did just that, basically wiped out a what would one day be a powerful and vocal leftist youth that would counter the right.

Hell hath no fury like a cultural traditionalist xenophobe gone batshit.

Andy and Sock,

Forgive me for looking at this dispassionately, but that's what I'm doing right now in estimating that this guy is sane.

*IF* a sane person who had no moral qualms about his actions were to want to decapitate an entire political movement would they do anything different than what Breivik did?

In this sense, his planning and execution of what is both a military operation and an act of political revolution was sound. No one suspected he was going to do this and he went to great lengths to obtain most of his supplies via means that would not attract attention. He maintained operational security. Then he planned the first stage of his attack to deliberately divert oppositional resources from what I believe was his principle target, the kids. The term for this kind of orchestration is operational elegance.

While he may not have scored any kind of achievement for his cause in the present, I believe his actual goal of diminishing the future prospects of the left in Norway have been achieved. He's caused great mental angusih to some of the most powerful leftist families in Norway and he's obviously killed scores of kids who were destined to be the next generation of leftist government and political leaders.

Ten years from now when the Norwegian left is starting to see their key leaders retire is when they will feel the most severe effects of what Breivik did here. Because they won't have any young shining stars to replace those leaders.

Again, I say this guy is not only coldly sane, he's brilliant and he really, really needs to be put to death. In 25 or 30 years when he gets out of prison he will absolutely still be a threat.

can't rep you for this, but you deserve it. So here's an Irish half dozen

[Canadian_Mind]

Did you the favour shep.

[Psudo]

desertdude wrote:

WTF ! I ordered regular fries with this !!...alright, now you've done it ! KABOOM !!

Hahaha! Hilarious.

Bart wrote:

Correctly, the courts in Norway have declared that Breivik is sane and that his actions were deliberate and not the result of delusions. [...] Illegal and wrong as they are, Breiviks' attacks have therefore been ruled to be rational acts.

So you're saying he's not mentally ill in the psychiatric sense, but a cold-blooded, heinous criminal in the dictator/assassin sense. It's not that his brain is disconnected from reality, but that he falsely imagines that his reasoning justifies mass murder. Do I understand you correctly?

I think you're right. But it still feels right to call him crazy if only because his views are so dramatically alien to what I'm used to and so distant from what is morally right.

[CommanderSock]

Quote:

So you're saying he's not mentally ill in the psychiatric sense, but a cold-blooded, heinous criminal in the dictator/assassin sense. It's not that his brain is disconnected from reality, but that he falsely imagines that his reasoning justifies mass murder. Do I understand you correctly?

I think you're right. But it still feels right to call him crazy if only because his views are so dramatically alien to what I'm used to and so distant from what is morally right.

I still notice how many American intellectuals subtly refer to Hitler as insane, or crazy. But he was simply a brilliant orator, leader, and of course a brutal murderer who had no qualms about exterminating fellow human beings. He was no fool. He was certainly not crazy.

This is the league Brevik is in. He is a self made millionaire. That in itself tells us something about his determination and character. Most men would have settled with their millions and lived a comfortable lifestyle. But Mr Brevik...had other plans

[andyt]

Crazy is not a psychiatric word. Hitler and Brievik may not have psychiatric diagnoses, but they sure are crazy. And, nobody ever met with Hitler to make a diagnosis. Breivik may still be found to be mentally ill by a psychiatrist - so crazy and mentally ill. Whether the court finds him not responsible for his crimes is another matter. In Canada, he would have to be found to have been psychotic at the time, ie he couldn't understand the meaning of his actions and so is not responsible for them. Very doubtful, IMO, that the Norwegian court will find such.

[CommanderSock]

Quote:

Crazy is not a psychiatric word. Hitler and Brievik may not have psychiatric diagnoses, but they sure are crazy. And, nobody ever met with Hitler to make a diagnosis. Breivik may still be found to be mentally ill by a psychiatrist - so crazy and mentally ill. Whether the court finds him not responsible for his crimes is another matter. In Canada, he would have to be found to have been psychotic at the time, ie he couldn't understand the meaning of his actions and so is not responsible for them. Very doubtful, IMO, that the Norwegian court will find such.

In North America we think mass murderers are crazy. We forget that some of history's most influential people were mass murderers.

It's a copout, "he must be crazy, no sane person could do this", it's so people can disconnect themselves from the actions of a person. This is so we can make ourselves feel safer. Wrap ourselves in a bubble.

[andyt]

They are crazy. We all have our dark side, I'm well aware of mine. Most of us manage to restrain ourselves however. That's what makes "them" crazy and "us" not. So we're all potentially crazy, but most of us manage to go thru life without ever acting on that potential.

[CommanderSock]

andyt wrote:

They are crazy. We all have our dark side, I'm well aware of mine. Most of us manage to restrain ourselves however. That's what makes "them" crazy and "us" not. So we're all potentially crazy, but most of us manage to go thru life without ever acting on that potential.

Cold calculated murder/extermination is not crazy.

Imagine the holocaust for a moment (yes, I digress).

Administrators printed documents documenting extermination procedures, precedents, methodology, names, addresses and other information

Ministers signed off those papers

The Fuhrer signed off them off too.

Engineers sat together and created machines that would exterminate people (financing stage, design stage, engineering stage, implementation stage etc).

I could go on....

How many of these people were crazy Andy?

And more importantly, a self made millionaire with a 1500 page manifesto about his vision for Europe's future...ok you know where I'm going with this...

It doesn't strike me as crazy, just cold blooded, just like the nazi administrators, engineers, ministers and the fuhrer himself.

[Brenda]

I think you guys should define "crazy" first.

[andyt]

Germany went crazy, most Germans were crazy to some degree. Cold blooded is crazy. To try to exterminate an entire race for some crazy idea is crazy. To me, cold blooded killing is crazier than hot blooded killing. I understand a crime of passion, tho I think the perpetrator was certainly crazy at the time. But to cold coldbloodedly kill people as if they were vermin - to me that's a definition of crazy. I'm sure you could even find a suitable psychiatric diagnosis for this sort of craziness. Just as I think psychopaths are crazy. They are definitely cold blooded. Don't you think they're crazy? Many business types show a high degree of psychopathy. I think they're crazy too. Just caring about yourself and having no empathy for others is crazy in my book.

But that's different than not knowing what you're doing is wrong the way say Vince Lee is. I couldn't tell right from wrong. But to me, that's no pass to get out when he's suddenly "cured". He needs to be locked up for a long time, and watched carefully when he's released.

People have suggested we use the term evil for someone like Breivik. To me that's just another word for crazy. Evil is crazy. In Buddhist terms, it's taking the illusion that you're the center of the universe way too far.

[Canadian_Mind]

Andy, is your dark side that you like to eat kittens?

[andyt]

Canadian_Mind wrote:

Andy, is your dark side that you like to eat kittens?

With the right sauce, sure. How is that any darker than baby back ribs? Pigs are smarter than cats any day.

[Canadian_Mind]

andyt wrote:

Canadian_Mind wrote:

Andy, is your dark side that you like to eat kittens?

With the right sauce, sure. How is that any darker than baby back ribs? Pigs are smarter than cats any day.

I'll give you that, but pigs taste better.