[Psudo]

ShepherdsDog wrote:

Psudo wrote:

the defining trait of deism: that of a disinterested, uninvolved Creator.

Deism wasn't some monolithic 'religion' with only one set of beliefs. There were as many interpretations of it, as there were of traditional 'Christian' beliefs.

Then before you claim most of the Founding Fathers were deists and atheists, you need to define the scope of your personal definition. I went by the dictionary definition, which explicitly includes that trait in the definition.

[Lemmy]

Does it matter whether the founders were theists or atheists? Is that an argument in favour or proof of some hypothesis?

[ShepherdsDog]

@ Psudo

or you should expand your research on the movement beyond a mere dictionary definition.

It defines Christian as:

Quote:

one who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ

I think we can agree, especially you being a Mormon, that it's a little too simplistic...especially considering the millions who have died in conflicts over differing interpretations of what said teachings were.

[Psudo]

Actually, I find the dictionary definition more accurate than the partisan bickering. Especially with me being a Mormon.

Besides, do you really want to be the guy who is making the explicit claim that clearly depends on what definition you accept of a subjectively defined term? Recall that you started the founders discussion with your claim, and my argument is a really verbose way of saying "Nuh uh."

[Zipperfish]

Quote:

Mankind has inherited this wisdom from millennia of experience, and our understanding has been enriched further by the great liberal thinkers, some of my favorites being Isaiah Berlin, Karl Popper, F.A. Hayek and Ludwig von Mises.

Wisdom isn't heritable. Each young soul must learn the lessons anew and wither into wisdom in his own time.

[BartSimpson]

ShepherdsDog wrote:

In terms of religion, I'd say they were definitely liberals...most of them were deists and agnostics, paying only lip service to traditional religion.

This keeps coming up with revisionists who like to claim that the US Founders were anything but Christians. The problem is that of the signers of the Declaration of Independence and the signers of the Constitution only one of those men was not a pastor or a leader in their congregation and not a one of them did not profess a sincere belief in Christ in their personal letters.

Here's a representative sampling and, yes, I can fill a thread with these quotations all day long. The point is that while 20th and 21st century leftist revisionists would like to reimagine these men as non-Christian the fact of the matter is that the words of the men themselves say otherwise.

Quote:

Samuel Adams

Father of the American Revolution, Signer of the Declaration of Independence

I . . . recommend my Soul to that Almighty Being who gave it, and my body I commit to the dust, relying upon the merits of Jesus Christ for a pardon of all my sins.

Will of Samuel Adams
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Charles Carroll

Signer of the Declaration of Independence

On the mercy of my Redeemer I rely for salvation and on His merits; not on the works I have done in obedience to His precepts.

From an autographed letter in our possession written by Charles Carroll to Charles W. Wharton, Esq., on September 27, 1825, from Doughoragen, Maryland.

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William Cushing

First Associate Justice Appointed by George Washington to the Supreme Court, Signer of the Constitution

Sensible of my mortality, but being of sound mind, after recommending my soul to Almighty God through the merits of my Redeemer and my body to the earth . . .

Will of William Cushing

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John Dickinson

Signer of the Constitution

Rendering thanks to my Creator for my existence and station among His works, for my birth in a country enlightened by the Gospel and enjoying freedom, and for all His other kindnesses, to Him I resign myself, humbly confiding in His goodness and in His mercy through Jesus Christ for the events of eternity.

Will of John Dickinson
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John Hancock

Signer of the Declaration of Independence


Will of John Hancock
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Patrick Henry

Governor of Virginia, Contributor to the drafting of the Bill of Rights

This is all the inheritance I can give to my dear family. The religion of Christ can give them one which will make them rich indeed.

Will of Patrick Henry
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John Jay

First Chief Justice of the US Supreme Court

Unto Him who is the author and giver of all good, I render sincere and humble thanks for His manifold and unmerited blessings, and especially for our redemption and salvation by His beloved son. He has been pleased to bless me with excellent parents, with a virtuous wife, and with worthy children. His protection has companied me through many eventful years, faithfully employed in the service of my country; His providence has not only conducted me to this tranquil situation but also given me abundant reason to be contented and thankful. Blessed be His holy name!

Last address to the Supreme Court by Chief Justice John Jay
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Daniel St. Thomas Jenifer

Signer of the Constitution

In the name of God, Amen. I, Daniel of Saint Thomas Jenifer . . . of dispossing mind and memory, commend my soul to my blessed Redeemer. . .

Will of Daniel St. Thomas Jenifer
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Henry Knox

Revolutionary War General, Secretary of War

First, I think it proper to express my unshaken opinion of the immortality of my soul or mind; and to dedicate and devote the same to the supreme head of the Universe – to that great and tremendous Jehovah, – Who created the universal frame of nature, worlds, and systems in number infinite . . . To this awfully sublime Being do I resign my spirit with unlimited confidence of His mercy and protection . . .

Will of Henry Knox
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John Langdon

Signer of the Constitution

In the name of God, Amen. I, John Langdon, . . . considering the uncertainty of life and that it is appointed unto all men once to die [Hebrews 9:27], do make, ordain and publish this my last will and testament in manner following, that is to say-First: I commend my soul to the infinite mercies of God in Christ Jesus, the beloved Son of the Father, who died and rose again that He might be the Lord of the dead and of the living . . . professing to believe and hope in the joyful Scripture doctrine of a resurrection to eternal life . . .

Will of John Langdon
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John Morton

Signer of the Declaration of Independence

With an awful reverence to the great Almighty God, Creator of all mankind, I, John Morton . . . being sick and weak in body but of sound mind and memory-thanks be given to Almighty God for the same, for all His mercies and favors-and considering the certainty of death and the uncertainty of the times thereof, do, for the settling of such temporal estate as it hath pleased God to bless me with in this life . . .

Will of John Morton
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Robert Treat Paine

Signer of the Declaration of Independence

I desire to bless and praise the name of God most high for appointing me my birth in a land of Gospel Light where the glorious tidings of a Savior and of pardon and salvation through Him have been continually sounding in mine ears.

Robert Treat Paine, The Papers of Robert Treat Paine, Stephen Riley and Edward Hanson, editors (Boston: Massachusetts Historical Society, 1992), Vol. I, p. 48, March/April, 1749.

[W]hen I consider that this instrument contemplates my departure from this life and all earthly enjoyments and my entrance on another state of existence, I am constrained to express my adoration of the Supreme Being, the Author of my existence, in full belief of his providential goodness and his forgiving mercy revealed to the world through Jesus Christ, through whom I hope for never ending happiness in a future state, acknowledging with grateful remembrance the happiness I have enjoyed in my passage through a long life. . .

Will of Robert Treat Paine
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Charles Cotesworth Pinckney

Signer of the Constitution

To the eternal, immutable, and only true God be all honor and glory, now and forever, Amen!. . .

Will of Charles Cotesworth Pinckney
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Rufus Putnam

Revolutionary War General, First Surveyor General of the United States

[F]irst, I give my soul to a holy, sovereign God Who gave it in humble hope of a blessed immortality through the atonement and righteousness of Jesus Christ and the sanctifying grace of the Holy Spirit. My body I commit to the earth to be buried in a decent Christian manner. I fully believe that this body shall, by the mighty power of God, be raised to life at the last day; 'for this corruptable (sic) must put on incorruption and this mortal must put on immortality.' [I Corinthians 15:53]

Will of Rufus Putnam
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Benjamin Rush

Signer of the Declaration of Independence

My only hope of salvation is in the infinite, transcendent love of God manifested to the world by the death of His Son upon the cross. Nothing but His blood will wash away my sins. I rely exclusively upon it. Come, Lord Jesus! Come quickly!

Benjamin Rush, The Autobiography of Benjamin Rush, George Corner, editor (Princeton: Princeton University Press for the American Philosophical Society, 1948), p. 166, Travels Through Life, An Account of Sundry Incidents & Events in the Life of Benjamin Rush.

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Roger Sherman

Signer of the Declaration of Independence, Signer of the Constitution

I believe that there is one only living and true God, existing in three persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. . . . that the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments are a revelation from God. . . . that God did send His own Son to become man, die in the room and stead of sinners, and thus to lay a foundation for the offer of pardon and salvation to all mankind so as all may be saved who are willing to accept the Gospel offer.

Lewis Henry Boutell, The Life of Roger Sherman (Chicago: A. C. McClurg and Company, 1896), pp. 272-273.

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Richard Stockton

Signer of the Declaration of Independence

I think it proper here not only to subscribe to the entire belief of the great and leading doctrines of the Christian religion, such as the Being of God, the universal defection and depravity of human nature, the divinity of the person and the completeness of the redemption purchased by the blessed Savior, the necessity of the operations of the Divine Spirit, of Divine Faith, accompanied with an habitual virtuous life, and the universality of the divine Providence, but also . . . that the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom; that the way of life held up in the Christian system is calculated for the most complete happiness that can be enjoyed in this mortal state; that all occasions of vice and immorality is injurious either immediately or consequentially, even in this life; that as Almighty God hath not been pleased in the Holy Scriptures to prescribe any precise mode in which He is to be publicly worshiped, all contention about it generally arises from want of knowledge or want of virtue.

Letter of Richard Stockton to Phillip Abernathy; April 18, 1789
Library of Congress
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Jonathan Trumbull Sr.

Governor of Connecticut, Signer of the Constitution

Principally and first of all, I bequeath my soul to God the Creator and Giver thereof, and body to the Earth . . . nothing doubting but that I shall receive the same again at the General Resurrection thro the power of Almighty God; believing and hoping for eternal life thro the merits of my dear, exalted Redeemer Jesus Christ.

Will of Jonathan Trumbull
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John Witherspoon

Signer of the Declaration of Independence

I entreat you in the most earnest manner to believe in Jesus Christ, for there is no salvation in any other [Acts 4:12]. . . . [I]f you are not reconciled to God through Jesus Christ, if you are not clothed with the spotless robe of His righteousness, you must forever perish.

John Witherspoon, The Works of John Witherspoon (Edinburgh: J. Ogle, 1815), Vol. V, pp. 276, 278, The Absolute Necessity of Salvation Through Christ, January 2, 1758.

These are the words of Christians.

[Lemmy]

BartSimpson wrote:

This keeps coming up with revisionists who like to claim that the US Founders were anything but Christians. The problem is that of the signers of the Declaration of Independence and the signers of the Constitution only one of those men was not a pastor or a leader in their congregation and not a one of them did not profess a sincere belief in Christ in their personal letters.

Again, so what? I don't see why this is pertinent.

[Psudo]

That John Hancock quote that was screwed up because it was wrapped in [ img ] was supposed to say:

Quote:

I John Hancock, … being advanced in years and being of perfect mind and memory-thanks be given to God-therefore calling to mind the mortality of my body and knowing it is appointed for all men once to die [Hebrews 9:27], do make and ordain this my last will and testament … Principally and first of all, I give and recommend my soul into the hands of God that gave it: and my body I recommend to the earth … nothing doubting but at the general resurrection I shall receive the same again by the mercy and power of God…

Bart or a Mod, please edit that post to fix that. It has messed up the display of the whole page.

And Lemmy, you should be asking ShepherdsDog that. He's the one who brought it up.

[Lemmy]

I'm not particular about who fields the question. I was just curious why it mattered.

[Psudo]

It matters to me as an issue of reality. Someone says 1+1=3, and I habitually correct them.

[ShepherdsDog]

Funny... a Mormon discussing reality in terms of religion. It's like asking a Scientologist for their take on psychiatry.

[Psudo]

ShepherdsDog, your generalization of Mormons as irrational is pure prejudice. If you genuinely believe what you're saying, you should read something that challenges your preconceptions.

Or, if that's too expensive or time consuming, try a simple thought experiment: how many Mormons are on this site? As far as rationality goes, how do they compare with the average poster?

[ShepherdsDog]

You're suggesting I read more?? You based your views on Deism on a dictionary definition. I'd almost think you were trying to be funny, but based on your posts and observations, I don't think that's part of your nature.

I'm sorry but I've read quite enough about 'Mormonism', including the Book of Mormon to know it's no different than Scientology, also founded by a snake oil salesman with a vivid imagination and no scruples. At best it's mediocre sci-fi/fantasy As I've pointed out before, science proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that Mormonism was a hoax perpetrated on people who had no knowledge of DNA, anthropology or archaeology.

[Psudo]

I didn't cite specific passages from the dozen books I've read on the founders and religion because you didn't cite anything for me to dispute. It's your word vs. my word, Webster, and Bart's quotes. Evidence in this thread sides against your claim, and I'm happy to let that stand.

I don't particularly care if you read about Mormonism anymore so long as you stop being loudly ignorant on the subject. "Pointed out" is not proved; you could just as easily "point out" that Jews control the world through a vast banking conspiracy, and you'd be just as prejudiced and wrong. You believe Mormonism inherently includes ignoring scientific evidence; fine, got it. Your views are expressed and understood. You have been heard. That's no reason to criticize my arguments on the basis of my religion. When, in your experience, has my personal behavior been irrational? Dismissing my argument because of my religion is a prejudiced generalization disputed by the actual evidence of my behavior on this site. If it's irrational to dismiss empirical evidence to maintain your existing conclusions, congratulations! you've met the standard.