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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 12:54 pm
 


Sunnyways wrote:

The EU is not a state.



Hmm, it has citizens, a flag, an anthem, borders, a budget, it has the ability to raise
cash and a legislative body.

So what is it missing ?

Oh, right.... a military.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:58 pm
 


llama66 wrote:
I'm going to counter with US States can't vote themselves out of the union..


Since we haven't revisited a secession vote in 150+ years then it's really not an issue right now.

But let's say that California voted for secession (something that is a possibility given the anti-US bent of many of the state's Democrats) then it's entirely possible that Congress would let them go.

The Democrats would not oppose a Democrat-sponsored action and the GOP certainly would not oppose 54 leftist electoral votes disappearing and guaranteeing Republican control of the White Hut for the next generation or two.

This is not merely speculative, either.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/04/24/calexit ... hance.html


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 2:02 pm
 


BartSimpson wrote:
llama66 wrote:
I'm going to counter with US States can't vote themselves out of the union..


Since we haven't revisited a secession vote in 150+ years then it's really not an issue right now.

But let's say that California voted for secession (something that is a possibility given the anti-US bent of many of the state's Democrats) then it's entirely possible that Congress would let them go.

The Democrats would not oppose a Democrat-sponsored action and the GOP certainly would not oppose 54 leftist electoral votes disappearing and guaranteeing Republican control of the White Hut for the next generation or two.

This is not merely speculative, either.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/04/24/calexit ... hance.html

I was just referencing based on the Civil War and White v. Texas, precedent and interpretation can change, sure.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 2:50 pm
 


I never thought we'd be legalizing marijuana, or that gay marriage would be legal, or etc. yet here we are.

Things change.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 2:56 pm
 


martin14 wrote:
Sunnyways wrote:

The EU is not a state.



Hmm, it has citizens, a flag, an anthem, borders, a budget, it has the ability to raise
cash and a legislative body.

So what is it missing ?

Oh, right.... a military.


Lots of associations have a flag, a song and a budget. Unlike Scotland, the UK didn’t have to ask anybody’s permission to hold a referendum on leaving.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 3:52 pm
 


Sunnyways wrote:
Lots of associations have a flag, a song and a budget. Unlike Scotland, the UK didn’t have to ask anybody’s permission to hold a referendum on leaving.


If the EU is just an association then why do you think they want to have a consolidated EU military to replace the militaries of the member states?

And note that this is not something new.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/13/worl ... force.html

Interesting...just two years ago the EU was dismissing the notion that Macron just put forth in order to try to silence Brexit supporters.

https://www.cer.eu/insights/eu-army-fou ... not-happen

Quote:
Britain's eurosceptics have spent years frightening people with the idea of an 'EU Army'. It should not come as a surprise, therefore, that the subject is once again rearing its head in the referendum campaign. But the reality of European defence co-operation does not match the rhetoric – whether eurosceptic or federalist.


The Brexiteers were RIGHT.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2018 11:40 pm
 


There seems to some confusion about Macron's remarks. His concern with an attack from the US may have been related to cyber attacks which do occur already.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 12:01 am
 


Sunnyways wrote:
There seems to some confusion about Macron's remarks. His concern with an attack from the US may have been related to cyber attacks which do occur already.


No, there is no confusion.
He lumped the US in with traditional enemies like Russia and China.

Macron is only interested in deconstructing France to meet the EU's goals.

Why do you think Macron is now the official drum beater for the EU army,
and for example Merkel isn't ?


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 5:30 am
 


Once again the Republican spin madters try to distort things.

But on another note, imagine how triggered the Republicans would be if the President of France flew to the US and within minutes of landing on US soil started tweeting insults at the US President and questioning their military alliance. On Armistice Day no less. And then no-showed the ceremonies. And all In front of Putin.

:roll:

President Bonespurs and his followers: No class. No honour.

Quote:
Why Trump’s explosive claim that Macron wants a European military ‘to protect itself from the U.S.’ is so misleading

....It’s up for debate whether the World War I commemorations are the appropriate moment to launch a discussion about finances. But apart from that, Trump’s interpretation of Macron’s remarks earlier this week is also factually misleading. What Macron said has been largely echoed by European Union leaders for months now, and in fact mimics the same demand Trump has long made: Europe needs to stop relying on the United States for its own defense.

“I believe in the project of a sovereign Europe. We won’t protect Europe if we don’t decide to have a true European army. In front of Russia, which is at our borders and which can be threatening, I would like to start a security dialogue with Russia, which is a country I respect and which is European,” Macron told French radio station Europe 1 this week.

“We have to have a Europe that can defend itself alone — and without only relying on the United States — in a more sovereign manner,” he added.

....Rushing to Trump’s defense on social media, some pointed to another Macron quote in the same interview this week. Europe has to protect itself “with respect to China, Russia and even the United States,” he said. But in that portion of his radio interview, Macron was actually referring to cybersecurity matters and fading multilateralism.

There has been some scrutiny of U.S. cybersecurity operations in Europe for years, especially after it was revealed in 2014 that the National Security Agency intercepted calls by Merkel and had access to sensitive communications. From a European perspective, not protecting itself from possible U.S. spying operations would appear rather naive, given those disclosures
....


https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/20 ... b2fe63f8e5


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 6:09 am
 


BeaverFever wrote:

Quote:
Why Trump’s explosive claim that Macron wants a European military ‘to protect itself from the U.S.’ is so misleading

....It’s up for debate whether the World War I commemorations are the appropriate moment to launch a discussion about finances. But apart from that, Trump’s interpretation of Macron’s remarks earlier this week is also factually misleading. What Macron said has been largely echoed by European Union leaders for months now, and in fact mimics the same demand Trump has long made: Europe needs to stop relying on the United States for its own defense.

“I believe in the project of a sovereign Europe. We won’t protect Europe if we don’t decide to have a true European army. In front of Russia, which is at our borders and which can be threatening, I would like to start a security dialogue with Russia, which is a country I respect and which is European,” Macron told French radio station Europe 1 this week.

“We have to have a Europe that can defend itself alone — and without only relying on the United States — in a more sovereign manner,” he added.

....Rushing to Trump’s defense on social media, some pointed to another Macron quote in the same interview this week. Europe has to protect itself “with respect to China, Russia and even the United States,” he said. But in that portion of his radio interview, Macron was actually referring to cybersecurity matters and fading multilateralism.

There has been some scrutiny of U.S. cybersecurity operations in Europe for years, especially after it was revealed in 2014 that the National Security Agency intercepted calls by Merkel and had access to sensitive communications. From a European perspective, not protecting itself from possible U.S. spying operations would appear rather naive, given those disclosures
....




Well that's a nice diatribe.... but where is France in all this ?
Not mentioned once.


Quote:
But in that portion of his radio interview, Macron was actually referring to cybersecurity matters and fading multilateralism.


Yeah.... from the Russians.

Quote:
Faced with “a Russia which is at our borders and has shown that it can be a threat”, Macron argued: “We need a Europe which defends itself better alone, without just depending on the United States.”

In another apparent reference to Russia, he insisted that “intrusion attempts in cyberspace and multiple interventions in our democracies” required a united response.


https://www.euractiv.com/section/defenc ... -us-china/


The Washington Post is just lying MSM covering up the Freudian slip.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 6:38 am
 


martin14 wrote:
BeaverFever wrote:

Quote:
Why Trump’s explosive claim that Macron wants a European military ‘to protect itself from the U.S.’ is so misleading

....It’s up for debate whether the World War I commemorations are the appropriate moment to launch a discussion about finances. But apart from that, Trump’s interpretation of Macron’s remarks earlier this week is also factually misleading. What Macron said has been largely echoed by European Union leaders for months now, and in fact mimics the same demand Trump has long made: Europe needs to stop relying on the United States for its own defense.

“I believe in the project of a sovereign Europe. We won’t protect Europe if we don’t decide to have a true European army. In front of Russia, which is at our borders and which can be threatening, I would like to start a security dialogue with Russia, which is a country I respect and which is European,” Macron told French radio station Europe 1 this week.

“We have to have a Europe that can defend itself alone — and without only relying on the United States — in a more sovereign manner,” he added.

....Rushing to Trump’s defense on social media, some pointed to another Macron quote in the same interview this week. Europe has to protect itself “with respect to China, Russia and even the United States,” he said. But in that portion of his radio interview, Macron was actually referring to cybersecurity matters and fading multilateralism.

There has been some scrutiny of U.S. cybersecurity operations in Europe for years, especially after it was revealed in 2014 that the National Security Agency intercepted calls by Merkel and had access to sensitive communications. From a European perspective, not protecting itself from possible U.S. spying operations would appear rather naive, given those disclosures
....




Well that's a nice diatribe.... but where is France in all this ?
Not mentioned once.


What are you talking about, do you not know who Macron is?


Quote:
Quote:
But in that portion of his radio interview, Macron was actually referring to cybersecurity matters and fading multilateralism.


Yeah.... from the Russians.


This is a reference to the US spying on Merkel

Quote:
Quote:
Faced with “a Russia which is at our borders and has shown that it can be a threat”, Macron argued: “We need a Europe which defends itself better alone, without just depending on the United States.”

In another apparent reference to Russia, he insisted that “intrusion attempts in cyberspace and multiple interventions in our democracies” required a united response.



https://www.euractiv.com/section/defenc ... -us-china/



So what’s your problem here?



Quote:
The Washington Post is just lying MSM covering up the Freudian slip.


No it’s accurate and nobody understands what new convoluted media conspiracy claim you’re trying to make today.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:42 am
 


Cybersecurity attacks against companies and individuals come from the US on a regular basis.

Do we have the original text of Macron’s speech? Something tells me Trump did not read that. Given what Trump has already said and done, Europe would be foolish not to beef up its defences, particularly against Russia.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:57 pm
 


Ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooops

A little bit of truth slips out.





France calls for Europe to become 'an Empire' to rival China and the US

Finance Minister Bruno Le Maire said EU must project its power around world
He clarified: 'Do not get me wrong, I'm talking about a peaceful empire'
It comes after President Macron last week called for 'a real European army'

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... na-US.html


Quote:
'Power will make the difference: technological power, economic, financial, monetary, cultural power will be crucial. Europe should no longer shy away from playing its power and being an empire of peace.'

It comes after President Macron last week called for 'a real European army' to protect the continent from growing military threats - including the United States.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:25 pm
 


martin14 wrote:
Ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooops

A little bit of truth slips out.





France calls for Europe to become 'an Empire' to rival China and the US

Finance Minister Bruno Le Maire said EU must project its power around world
He clarified: 'Do not get me wrong, I'm talking about a peaceful empire'
It comes after President Macron last week called for 'a real European army'

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... na-US.html


Quote:
'Power will make the difference: technological power, economic, financial, monetary, cultural power will be crucial. Europe should no longer shy away from playing its power and being an empire of peace.'

It comes after President Macron last week called for 'a real European army' to protect the continent from growing military threats - including the United States.



So? It’s ok for US and China but not Europe?


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 6:38 am
 


Europe should gradually integrate if it wants to have any role in the world’s future. Its component countries, even Germany, are too small to matter in a world dominated by the US and China and with an aggressive Russian regime on its border - did you see the way Trump lit up,when he saw Putin? There’s nothing remotely sinister about such an aspiration for anybody who has Europe’s interests at heart. However, this process with take generations and will have many setbacks.


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