[oh canada]

[QUOTE BY= Dr Caleb] <br /> <br /> No, they were 45% successful. [/quote]<br /> <br /> Point being, you're original statement that a special task force be setup to find these guys has already been done and it did not work ( by your own admission)...and last I checked the main guy still isn't captured.<br /> <br /> [quote]<br /> And absolutely no civillians were harmed. <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/smile.gif' alt='Smile'><br /> [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Too bad the same can't be said for project: Iraq Oil Grab.

[Dr Caleb]

[QUOTE BY= oh canada] <br /> Point being, you're original statement that a special task force be setup to find these guys has already been done and it did not work ( by your own admission)...and last I checked the main guy still isn't captured.<br /> [/quote]<br /> <br /> No, my point was that things like the war in Iraq are hugely expensive and unsuccessful. Carpet bombing Iraq does not get the people responsible, it only kills innocents. A very prejudicial search and destroy would. Mossad's operation got 8 of the 11 people responsible, and the rest are living a very guarded life, because they know what would happen if they ever re-surfaced back into the public eye.<br /> <br /> As the Marine Corps paper states, the Mossad operation was successful. It met it's objectives, even if it didn't kill everyone responsible. <br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= oh canada] <br /> Too bad the same can't be said for project: Iraq Oil Grab.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/smile.gif' alt='Smile'> Exactally. Widespread bombing isn't the answer to terror attacks. Terror is what these people understand. If they are scared to ever step foot out of their spider holes, then the plan worked.<br /> <br />

[michou]

Contrary to the Americans who went into a psychotic reaction after 9/11 (who still haven't gotten out of it...if they ever will), the British people, like the Spaniards before them, have sufficient information and knowledge to understand that these were not, as their leaders would have them believe, attacks against "individual liberties and freedoms" but were made against the militaristic and economic freedoms their OWN national governments have taken to subdue the Islamic world. Going after perpertrators is one thing but not changing foreign policies that breed them is folly on the part of our governments though it is excellent news and good business for the MIC. <br /> Who's running the show here anyway ? Is it the people, their governments or the military ? I have my own opinion about this but I'll let you come to your own.

[Marcarc]

Great Britain obviously has the same system as Canada, and like Canadians most realize that they have no mechanisms to obtain change. Like the american system, the federal system is composed of two variations of the same stripe, Blair's Labour Party is supposed to be the moderates! So they really didn't have too many options in the last election and certainly have no way of forcing the government to get out of Iraq or change it's policies.<br /> <br /> As far as 1972 goes, even Israel admits that half of the assassination teams were a complete failure, and as stated, even those who claimed responsibility (their faces were never seen at the hostage taking) did so after being 'interrogated' by Mossad, probably the most feared terrorist, er, intelligence agency on earth. This makes anything that comes out suspect, particularly that there was no such thing as Black September, and that the terrorists were PLO (apart from victims statements there is no evidence).<br /> <br /> Also, while theirs no doubt they were guilty of murder, it was unfortunately under duress as German police ambushed them, a different fate may have been planned, and in fact hostages were freed from the 747 when release of the Munich terrorists was granted by Germany.<br /> <br /> The idea then of painting terrorists as 'monsters' is as defeatist as denying our own and similar police and military forces are angels. As somebody who grew up in a military town, I can tell you from experience that it is not until the formative years approach that a good many of these guys suddenly realize they are 'doing it for their country'. Should they be called upon as they were at Oka to threaten canadian citizens you can be sure they'd do so as quick as you can blink.<br /> <br /> It takes an incredible amount of energy and violence to turn individuals into killing machines, which is why the military is so institutionalized. Nicaragua or Cuba don't set off bombs in Washington, even though under US rules they have every right to do so. Likewise, India didn't bomb England and the Congo didn't bomb Belgium. It takes incredible inflicted suffering for somebody to turn his back on his family and because a killer for their culture.<br /> <br /> This is all to address the above statements about 'the best way to go about finding the terrorists'. As I said, stop being one. In Canada so far this isn't our fight, although it is getting to be so since our government is too scared to say no to Uncle Sam. These are not 'monsters', although they do montrous things, just like those on 'our side' are not monsters, but do even more monstrous things. I recall one day's reporting at the outset of the war when british troops killed far more Iraqi's than this one incident. <br /> <br /> Some of the older british still have the delusions of grandeur of the days when they still ruled the world, the next generation is knowing full well that they are merely cogs in the american machine, but it takes a lot of effort to change seven hundred years of monarchy and elitism.

[oh canada]

[QUOTE BY= michou] Contrary to the Americans who went into a psychotic reaction after 9/11 (who still haven't gotten out of it...if they ever will), the British people, like the Spaniards before them, have sufficient information and knowledge to understand that these were not, as their leaders would have them believe, attacks against "individual liberties and freedoms" but were made against the militaristic and economic freedoms their OWN national governments have taken to subdue the Islamic world. .[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> What an excellent post! Why everyone see that???<br /> <br /> If anyone watches The Daily Show with Jon Stewart they actually addressed this very point on Monday's show. This program is absolutely terrific and probably the best news source Americans have access to even though it's a comedy show <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/lol.gif' alt='Laughing Out Loud'>

[Brother Jonathan]

[QUOTE by Dr Caleb]</b> …And absolutely no civillians were harmed. <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/smile.gif' alt='Smile'><b>[/QUOTE]<br /> You’re forgetting the Moroccan waiter in Lillehammer who was assassinated by Mossad agents in a tragic case of mistaken identity…

[Marcarc]

1. Government knew in advance. <br /> This wasn't known for sure, the idea that Scotland Yard knew about it but chose to inform Israel and not the british people is tricky. Quoting 'unnamed sources' is always tricky and often in such confusion people have no idea what's going on and will spout gossip as fact. Even if true one suspects that in such emergencies ALL embassies are notified.<br /> <br /> <br /> 2. An almost impossible coincidence. A London Underground Bombing 'Exercises' Took Place at Same Time as Real Attack<br /> <br /> I couldn't even find this company on british searches, IF this is true then it seems bizarre (interviews can be easily made in someone's basement) If anything these guys should be held, because its a good possibility that they were involved or had information stolen. What would a PR company be doing conducting bomb drills? What would ANY private company be doing?<br /> <br /> 3. Change and censorship of information in media<br /> #1 was later changed. <br /> See my comments on number 1. Rumours fly around when catastrophe's occur like water from a sprinkler.<br /> <br /> 4. Lack of accountability that four dead "bombers" willing to die. Unnecessary to die. Even if they were Islamic fanatics, there was no necessity for them to die. <br /> <br /> This is typical western thinking. Two points. First, it's an HONOUR to die in such a way. Second, one of the prime reasons for suicide bombing is so that no evidence of oneself is found and you are not around afterwards. We know all about Israel's mossad and if they knew who you were, you could probably kiss your family goodbye as well. It's virtually guaranteed that you will die anyway taking any type of terrorist action, either from mossad or any random thugs hired by the 'more civilized' countries.<br /> <br /> 6. The most absurd thing is there is no motivation. What was the purpose of bombing? Who was the target? The victim of London bombing are ordinary people.<br /> <br /> There are no ordinary people in a democracy. In a democracy 'the people' call the shots, even if they don't like to admit it. Blair lied and went to war and won a majority government, the majority of the people supported him. Terrorists are simply using the same logic as imperial terrorists, they attack whose defenseless. Have you seen the US in North Korea or China? They attack central american countries and middle eastern and african countries that cannot fight back. It works well for them, likewise, a terrorist isn't going to try to break into the parliament buildings because they are heavily guarded.<br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> Of course it may well be true that Israel was behind it, or that the US was behind it, or that Canada was behind it. That al queda or that muslims are sipping tea and saying 'pity whats going on back home' and nothing else is pretty absurd. Either way it serves little purpose as it just divides the two sides even more-was it al-queda, or was it Israel. Both may have had reasons for it, you can flip a coin to decide, it doesn't change the fact that that's not the issue.<br />

[Milton]

The name of the company that conducted the bombing exercise is Visor Consultants. Google it, you will get lots of hits. The interview with Peter Power,(managing director), took place on BBC radio. You could look at the article I posted <br /> <a href="http://www.vivelecanada.ca/article.php/20050709204236976">here</a> . The sources are documented.<br /> <br /> Suppose it was Blair and Bush's teams that planned the attack, what then?<br /> <br /> We don't live in a democracy, we live in a representative democracy. This means we get to choose our masters from a list that they present to us every so often.<br /> <br /> <br />

[Marcarc]

The question isn't a matter of democracy, I used the term loosely. In fact we're not, and britain is not a representative democracy-the US is. We have a system of responsible government, the same as we had over a hundred years ago.<br /> The point is that the british have freedom. There have been protests, but the intelligentsia are remarkably tolerant and the 'working class' is Blair's biggest constituency and put him into power once again with a majority. You'll note that the attack occurred during the morning commute, not at 11 or 2 or midnight. <br /> This has nothing to do with us, although many seem to think we're still Great Britain or have been attacked. The more involved we get, the higher the likelihood of attack. <br /> Opposing this war does not necessitate blaming Israel or the US, there are a thousand reasons to oppose this, or any war. There will never be any way to prove definitively who did this, the story about the exercises is so bizarre that it merely confuses the whole issue, I don't see how it makes any conclusions possible. If you're the type of person to blame Israel you'll find reasons, and al-queda and the US and on and on.

[Milton]

You mentioned Israel, not me. And what do you mean by going on about the kind of person that would blame Israel, the US, etc. I don't understand how you come to the conclusion that we won't ever know who "did this". I could see why you might come to that conclusion by categorizing evidence as "so bizarre that it confuses the whole issue". Do we let the evidence tell the story or do we write the story and then look for only evidence that corroborates the story? When 911 happened we were all asleep at the wheel, but we aren't now and we have recorded the story as it was presented by the authorities and we are analyzing it piece by piece.

[Marcarc]

I'm not sure if the above is directed at me, I was rebutting a previous claim by some poster who seemed to indicate that this was an act of Israel or the US. Apart from that I don't really understand the point of the above post (if it was directed toward my post). Clearly during a suicide attack there is little evidence left over, which is why I say we will never really know what happened. We are not party to the investigations and can only go by second and third party accounts which can be twisted any which way. <br /> <br /> A perfect example of this is the fact that identification was found on suspected suicide bombers. Now, I have no idea about this, but it's interesting that one side says 'that's too convenient, nobody is that stupid' as a reason to blame somebody other than al-queda, while the other side says that ID was left on purpose so that people will know who did it. Both sides have valid points, and we can wrestle with it til we're blue in the face (which we seem to be doing).

[Milton]

Lets see now, the bombers bodies were blown to bits but their ID papers were not. Nothing suspicious there.<br /> <br /> They bought return tickets but planned to commit suicide. Nothing suspicious there.<br /> <br /> Their profiles are not those of stressed out people about to commit suicide for a cause. Nothing suspicious there.<br /> <br /> There was a bombing exercise invloving a thousand people taking place at the exact same time and places as the real bombs were planted. Nothing suspicious there.<br /> <br /> The whole situation was being monitored by Visor Consultants who went into "real time mode" when the bombs went off and managed the disaster rescue efforts. Yet the media was fed reports of power outages. Nothing suspicious there.<br /> <br /> The Israeli's reported simultaneous explosions went off immediately after the bombings took place, which was then denied by the authorities and ultimately confirmed days later. Nothing suspicious there.<br /> <br /> The bus that exploded was the only bus which was rerouted but where were the passengers going, the bus was not on the route it was supposed to be on. Nothing suspicious there.<br /> <br /> Eye witnesses have reported explosions originating under the trains yet the presstitutes report home made pack sack bombs. Nothing suspicious there.<br /> <br /> The list of "non suspicious" actions by authorities goes on and on, no need to go into the statements blared out by the british PM. Nothing suspicious there.

[Marcarc]

My point is that ALL of those things you tout as suspicous can be the same kinds of manipulations that you read in the media all the time. For all we know it could be that bildeburg or whatever they're called that is orchestrating the entire thing. If you don't see it, then you don't KNOW it. As far as suspicions go, if you wanted to blame somebody there are far better ways than stating that ID is found, it only takes melonheads like us five seconds to think of that, you think it wouldn't cross their minds? The company documented above could be a KGB cover organization for all we know. That's the thing about suspicions, you can have them about anything and they can come to any kind of conclusions. <br /> Haven't you noticed that it rains just after you wash your car, hmmmmmm, that's awfully suspicious. Perhaps the government has a weather controlling device designed to keep me angry so I'll buy beer. It's not too likely, and even if it were true I'm far better off covering my car, controlling my temper, and drinking water than spending my time analyzing the event.

[Milton]

We have the internet now. We can communicate with others of a like mind all over the world instantly(or close to it). So now we can get people in London posting their observations and conclusions. Therefore we don't have to rely on presstitutes for our info. Because we do have the internet and we do have individuals posting information, when the posted info refutes the cover story being sold by the presstitutes, the presstitutes then have to get a revised cover story to maintain their supposed credibility . This is why the story has changed on a daily basis.<br /> I have read many of your posts and I know you are an intelligent, informed individual but I wonder what your agenda in this thread is.<br /> First you say that ID is found and construct an argument between people who question whether bombers would carry ID or not. When I point out that the real question is how their IDs were not destroyed with their bodies, you ignore it. You then say there are better ways to blame somebody. The fact that you might have to have an in depth investigation into what happened doesn't seem to cross your mind. You then question what kind of company Visor Consultants is. How about questioning what kind of company Bechtel is? They run the subways in London. <br /> <br /> Whether or not it rains after the car is washed is irrelevant, immaterial and incompetent to paraphrase Perry Mason. If you don't want to analyze the event, then don't!

[Marcarc]

Quite simply these were homemade bombs, which means they don't annihilate matter. The guys who were blamed were all no-record muslims, three of whom were british, one a professor. It's far better to blame hard core terrorists, specifically ones from other countries. They also discovered explosives at their homes, which indicates that they wanted people to find out they were Al-quada. No surprise since a 'confession' was made shortly afterwards. This also didn't have the reaction of making Londoners suddenly support the government, if anything it made far more people suddenly realize what's at stake. Of course opinions are all over the place.