[andyt]

http://www.vancouversun.com/life/Acidic ... story.html

It's not just about AGW, put CO2 increasing the acidity of the oceans. Looks like the ability of the ocean to buffer the CO2 has passed a tipping point. This is also the worry with global warming, that at some point the homeostasis effects that reduce warming will fail.

I still don't think we'll reduce CO2 output enough to make a difference tho - I think nature will take care of it for us. Won't be pretty.

[DrCaleb]

andyt andyt:

I still don't think we'll reduce CO2 output enough to make a difference tho - I think nature will take care of us for it. Won't be pretty.

FTFY

[Jabberwalker]

This can't be the first time in history that the oceans were like club soda. Scallop-like things have been around for what ... a half Billion years? How did they make it this far, previously?

[andyt]

Jabberwalker Jabberwalker:

This can't be the first time in history that the oceans were like club soda. Scallop-like things have been around for what ... a half Billion years? How did they make it this far, previously?

The increase in acidity is very sudden, it has spiked over the last couple of years, hard for organisms to adapt. And, if it is CO2 doing this, well it will only get worse. And it sounds like there's not much doubt that CO2 is the culprit.

[andyt]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

FTFY

??? I'm not really up on the lolspeak.

[DrCaleb]

andyt andyt:

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

FTFY

??? I'm not really up on the lolspeak.

Fixed That For You.

$1:

I think nature will take care of us for it.

Nature has a way of shrugging off dominate species during catastrophic events and leaving only their bones behind for the next dominate species to ponder.

The acidity in the oceans not only affects Scallops, but other species that form shells for protection. Krill and Plankton for example, where the food chain of our planet begins. If they disappear, then everything above them does too, and eventually we do as well.

Scallops are just one of the species we've monetized, so we see the effects of a changing ocean in the wallet before we see the effects on our dinner tables.

[DrCaleb]

0:

Change to Believe in.jpg [ 42.82 KiB | Viewed 277 times ]

[andyt]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

andyt andyt:

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

FTFY

??? I'm not really up on the lolspeak.

Fixed That For You.

$1:

I think nature will take care of us for it.

Nature has a way of shrugging off dominate species during catastrophic events and leaving only their bones behind for the next dominate species to ponder.

The acidity in the oceans not only affects Scallops, but other species that form shells for protection. Krill and Plankton for example, where the food chain of our planet begins. If they disappear, then everything above them does too, and eventually we do as well.

Scallops are just one of the species we've monetized, so we see the effects of a changing ocean in the wallet before we see the effects on our dinner tables.

Well thanks, I guess, since that was the message I was trying to convey.

[N_Fiddledog]

OK, so before we cry too many tears for the dying scallops, screaming as they boil in the acidic ocean, let's stop, and have a bit of a think.

First of all the term acid ocean is a misnomer.

$1:

Aquarium pH is measured on a scale between 0-14.0. Aquarium water pH that measures 0-6.9 is acidic, while a fish tank pH measuring 7.1-14.0 is alkaline. Aquarium water pH of 7.0 is neutral...

You will hear people in the hobby state that you should keep the pH in aquariums at 7.0. Yes, 7.0 is neutral, and many tropical fish species will live comfortably in this pH range. But you do not need to panic if your pH is not exactly 7.0.

http://www.tropical-fish-success.com/aquarium-ph.html

So let's see what the global warmer sciency-tist is complaining about.

$1:

“I’ve seen pH measured down to about 7.2, so this is very much within the realm of possibility, though unfortunate and extreme,” he said. “We are in a hot spot in the Pacific Northwest.”

The lower the pH, the higher the acidity. Local waters are typically a much-less-acidic 8.2.

Acid is not bubbling up in the ocean. Oceans are not getting more acidic. They would have to be something, in order to become more of it. They may get less alkaline from time to time here and there, but not more acidic. It's a picture some organizations want to paint in your head is all.

Now there's a couple of other things the Vancouver Sun doesn't want to stress, or even tell you. These are not wild shellfish causing the complaint. They're farmed in millions. When wild stocks of any species are cultivated domestically there are problems. There always are. There have been problems at fish farms, domestic cattle herds, and it's no surprise there would be problems here. The Vancouver Sun forgot to tell you about the government grant this scallop farm owner has applied for with the global warming complaint in the title on the application.

These kinds of things have happened in the past. Global warming has been blamed, but when all the facts are known it turns out it had nothing to do with CO2 or temperature. Trust me though, when all the facts are known the Vancouver Sun won't be screaming headlines at you, "WE WERE WRONG! Oops." You'll go to your grave believing in acid oceans before they tell you how this one or all those stories they told you about frogs, and bees and salmon dying off from the global warming turned out to be attributed to the wrong cause.

As to this supposition that we have never seen these kinds of things happen in this short of time - bullshit.

[Zipperfish]

N_Fiddledog N_Fiddledog:

Oceans are not getting more acidic.

Acidifcation with respect to global warming means an incrfease in the hydrogen ion concentration in the ocean. CO2 reacts with water to form carbonic acid which dissocaites into a hydrogen ion (H+) and a carbonate ion. Increasing available H+ increases acidity.

So, yes, oceans are becoming more acidic. Certainly the oceans in the Pacific Northwest anyways.

http://coenv.washington.edu/research/major-initiatives/ocean-acidification/ocean-acidification-in-the-pacific-northwest/

[DrCaleb]

N_Fiddledog N_Fiddledog:

OK, so before we cry too many tears for the dying scallops, screaming as they boil in the acidic ocean, let's stop, and have a bit of a think.

Said no one.

N_Fiddledog N_Fiddledog:

First of all the term acid ocean is a misnomer.

$1:

Aquarium pH is measured on a scale between 0-14.0. Aquarium water pH that measures 0-6.9 is acidic, while a fish tank pH measuring 7.1-14.0 is alkaline. Aquarium water pH of 7.0 is neutral...

You will hear people in the hobby state that you should keep the pH in aquariums at 7.0. Yes, 7.0 is neutral, and many tropical fish species will live comfortably in this pH range. But you do not need to panic if your pH is not exactly 7.0.

http://www.tropical-fish-success.com/aquarium-ph.html

So let's see what the global warmer sciency-tist is complaining about.

$1:

“I’ve seen pH measured down to about 7.2, so this is very much within the realm of possibility, though unfortunate and extreme,” he said. “We are in a hot spot in the Pacific Northwest.”

The lower the pH, the higher the acidity. Local waters are typically a much-less-acidic 8.2.

'Neutral' is defined as a PH of 7. Higher (8.2) is a base, lower (6.9) is acid. When you add C02 to neutral water, it becomes acidic. 'More basic' is also 'less acidic'. Calcium reacts very easily with mild acids, such as vinegar and eggshells, the same calcium used by shellfish to build shells! Basic chemistry you can try for yourself at home!

Your blood is PH 7.35 to 7.45. If it reaches 7.2 or 7.5, you die. (Grade 10 Chemistry in 3 paragraphs or less!)

Now, why is it scallops can't live in tropical climates? That's right! Lower PH and warmer water! So what does that have to do with tropical fish? That's right! Nothing!

Why is the same thing happening to wild Oysters just south in Washington State? How about starfish on the west coast, why are they tearing themselves apart? Why are sea snails dying because their shells melt in the 'pristine' Antarctic waters?

N_Fiddledog N_Fiddledog:

Acid is not bubbling up in the ocean. Oceans are not getting more acidic. They would have to be something, in order to become more of it. They may get less alkaline from time to time here and there, but not more acidic. It's a picture some organizations want to paint in your head is all.

Speaking of alarmist, no one said that either.

N_Fiddledog N_Fiddledog:

Now there's a couple of other things the Vancouver Sun doesn't want to stress, or even tell you. These are not wild shellfish causing the complaint. They're farmed in millions. When wild stocks of any species are cultivated domestically there are problems. There always are. There have been problems at fish farms, and it's no surprise there would be problems here. The Vancouver Sun forgot to tell you about the government grant this scallop farm owner has applied for with the global warming complaint in the title on the application.

Umm, the former was in both articles, and what does the latter have to do with anything?

N_Fiddledog N_Fiddledog:

These kinds of things have happened in the past. Global warming has been blamed, but when all the facts are known it turns out it had nothing to do with CO2 or temperature. Trust me though, when all the facts are known the Vancouver Sun won't be screaming headlines at you, "WE WERE WRONG! Oops." You'll go to your grave believing in acid oceans before they tell you how this one or all those stories they told you about frogs, and bees and salmon dying off from the global warming turned out to be attributed to the wrong cause.

Said no one.

N_Fiddledog N_Fiddledog:

As to this supposition that we have never seen these kinds of things happen in this short of time - bullshit.

Speaking of alarmist . . . when have we seen anything like this? Oh yea, the Permian extinction event when Siberian volcanoes spewed enough C02 to turn the oceans acidic . . .

[N_Fiddledog]

I don't know where you got the idea scallops can't live in warm water. The Pacific pink scallop's range goes as far south as San Diego. Atlantic scallops can be found in the Gulf of Mexico.

So you repeat what was already posted as if you are offering new information when you say, "'Neutral' is defined as a PH of 7. Higher (8.2) is a base, lower (6.9) is acid."

And I repeat if even the warmer sciency-tist in the article says "Local waters are typically a much-less-acidic 8.2." and all he can offer is a legend of water, he says, of water that may have fallen as low as 7.2, well, even if he had evidence of that, even that outlier event would not produce acid water. It would be alkaline.

As to my bringing up frogs, and bees, and salmon. They're relevant. They were all at one time science by press release stories just like this one about the scallop farmer who wants a global warming grant (and btw the oysters in Washington were also farmed). When all the facts came out on the frogs and the bees, and the salmon the information never pointed to global warming as cause like the press releases promised it would.

And tropical fish are relevant, because the same acid ocean BS is preached for tropical waters. I think the 'acid ocean' myth began in Australia.

And you have to get over this idea that the extinction events of the Permian Triassic were necessarily CO2 caused. It was many millions of years ago. Little is known. There are many hypothesized causes, and good argument can be found to discredit the CO2 one. There have been studies and such.

[N_Fiddledog]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

Your blood is PH 7.35 to 7.45. If it reaches 7.2 or 7.5, you die. (Grade 10 Chemistry in 3 paragraphs or less!)

Sigh... Wrong. Back of the class again for you.

$1:

In order to function properly, the human body needs to maintain a blood pH between 7.35 and 7.45. Large deviations from this range are extremely dangerous. Values greater than 7.8 or less than 6.8 often result in death

http://www.harpercollege.edu/tm-ps/chm/ ... /zback.htm

[ShepherdsDog]

In the spirit of giving, I will forgo consuming the dwindling supplies of scallops and allow you all to divide my share amongst yourselves.....this is retroactive to my first year of life, excluding the one I spat out after trying scallops for the first and last time when I was 5

Also DKA can often cause diabetics to have a blood pH of 7.2 and lower which is usually treated with sodium bicarbonate. Below 6.9 is when it gets serious

[Xort]

From the point of political and economic interest I think it's farm more likely a local producer of farmed shellfish fucked something up and is trying to get some hands out than our oceans have become unable to support shellfish anymore.

Easy question to ask to try and verify claims of CO2 killing off shellfish; Are native populations suffering from mass die offs? Are near but not local ones also dying? What are the pH levels.

Basic question that should be asked before we default to blaming everything on CO2.