[Canadian_Mind]

andyt wrote:

2Cdo wrote:

We left because the average Canadian wouldn't support us staying any longer. If you were to question the rank and file, they want to stay to "finish the job" it's Canadians like yourself who have no stomach for it.

You guys are confusing the rank and file with the govt. It's the govt who came up with "cut and run" and now have done just that, since everybody is agreed the job isn't finished.

But how realistic is it to finish the job (win) with Pstan being the way it is? How many generations should we be prepared to be over there to finish the job?

What happened to you demanding we leave, Andy?

We didn't leave because we lost, but we didn't leave because we won, either. We left because the people couldn't stomach it anymore, and the government didn't have the gumption to carry on anyways. What I find the most painful part to think about is that, at least in our part of Kandahar, we were winning when we left. The whole war has sort of been like running a full marathon, and after finally reaching first place in the last 4 mile stretch, you get tired, quit, and just up and quit.

As for Pakistan, simple solution to dealing with the Taliban coming out of Pakistan is to go in there and deal with them. Problem with that is, it could cause the present government to fall. Either because they do nothing to stop the incursion into their country, and get ousted; or, because they respond to us, we wipe the floor with their military, and they get ousted. As awesome as the Arab spring was, it is a whole different ball game when you involve terrorist groups and nuclear weapons.

[andyt]

Canadian_Mind wrote:

What happened to you demanding we leave, Andy?

I've been saying we leave for years now - since it turned from getting Al Qaeda (good idea) to nation building(bad idea).

Canadian_Mind wrote:

We didn't leave because we lost, but we didn't leave because we won, either. We left because the people couldn't stomach it anymore, and the government didn't have the gumption to carry on anyways. What I find the most painful part to think about is that, at least in our part of Kandahar, we were winning when we left. The whole war has sort of been like running a full marathon, and after finally reaching first place in the last 4 mile stretch, you get tired, quit, and just up and quit.

If we were winning, we should have stayed and won. And if that's true, the govt could have made a good case to the Canadian people that this was winnable. But they didn't have a case, and winning in Kandahar isn't winning in Astan. And what does winning look like? Some corrupt govt dominated by warlords that gets overthrown by the Taliban coming back? Some win.

Canadian_Mind wrote:

As for Pakistan, simple solution to dealing with the Taliban coming out of Pakistan is to go in there and deal with them. Problem with that is, it could cause the present government to fall. Either because they do nothing to stop the incursion into their country, and get ousted; or, because they respond to us, we wipe the floor with their military, and they get ousted. As awesome as the Arab spring was, it is a whole different ball game when you involve terrorist groups and nuclear weapons.

Simple solution, except then you point out that it isn't so simple. In fact it's impossible, or we would have done it long ago. As you say, Pstan has nukes. And I doubt China would allow it either.

[bootlegga]

andyt wrote:

bootlegga wrote:

The war wasn't over as long as the Taliban were still around. It's like saying the Allies should have stopped after they won the Battle of Normandy. They had to keep going until all the Nazis were gone, not just those in their neck of the woods. Call that a Godwin if you like, but the fact remains that had we just stopped after we ousted the Taliban and then left, the Taliban would just have come back over the border from their hideouts in Pakistan and taken over again.

To win a war, you need to wipe out the enemy, not just chase them away.

So why did we leave? The Taliban aren't even wiped out in Astan, never mind Pstan. Did we cut and run then? What you're saying makes no sense, because Taliban taking refuge in Pstan and coming back to fight is already what's happening. How long would you have us stay in Astan until the final Taliban is wiped out? You're not seriously saying mission accomplished, are you?

Why did we leave? Two words - PUBLIC OPINION. Harper is the king of opinion polls and he didn't want it hanging over his head threatening his minority government, so he caved in and we packed up and left.

As I said in my previous post, I think we should be doing more than just training troops and police AKA we should still be there in Kandahar. We should stay until the Taliban are finished and the threat to the Afghan government is gone. If that means another ten years, then so be it. Of course, if we had the will to go after Taliban bases across the border in Pakistan, it would be over much faster than that - although it might spark a wider war against Islam.

The caveat being however, that I'd like to see other NATO countries step up and do some work too (Germany, France and Italy I'm looking at you) - instead of simply running PRTs in 'safe' parts of Afghanistan. I'd also like to see Taliban safe areas in Pakistan either wiped out or eliminated. As long as they exist and there is no political will to go after them (on either our part or the Pakistanis), they'll remain a thorn in our side forever.

It may sound harsh, but that's what it'll take to 'win' this conflict.

[andyt]

If defeating the Taliban permanently had a reasonable chance of success, and our allies were up for it, (Since Canada certainly is no position to do it by itself) I would say fine, let's stay another 10 years.

But you won't be able to do that. What will be in place of the Taliban? A corrupt govt run by warlords. So as soon as we leave, the Taliban would reform. It's not like they are a country that can be defeated. They are a response to the other shit choice that Astani's have, and they are way more dedicated than the warlords. Plus they have unlimited refuge in Pstan. It can't be done.