[JaredMilne]

The legacies of political leaders ranging from Winston Churchill to John A. Macdonald to George Washington are major controversies these days. They’ve been vilified as everything from racist to genocidal, as critics and protesters point out the ugly results many of their actions on peoples ranging from black Africans to North American Indigenous people. Those results still impact many of these same peoples today.

Many of those same people have good reason to be angry, but I can’t help but think that the controversy over these figures’ legacies kind of misses the forest for the trees. The real problem, in my mind, stems from the history of Anglo-British political theory and how it was put into practice. I say ‘Anglo-British’ because most of the theories originated in Britain and manifested in countries that were former British colonies and have English as one of their most common languages, like Canada and the United States.

British political thinkers like John Locke and Lord Acton and American Founding Fathers like Thomas Jefferson wrote extensively about freedom and human rights. Unfortunately, Britain and its colonies only applied those principles very selectively. While men like Locke, Acton and Jefferson were writing out deep, perceptive thoughts on liberty, the United States still enslaved black people and Britain was colonizing large swathes of Africa and Asia.

Canada is no exception to this, of course. Wilfrid Laurier spoke eloquently about a ‘partnership’ between Anglophone and Francophone Canadians, and how many different nationalities could live together without abandoning their traditions, saying “as long as I live ... I shall repel the idea of changing (Canada)’s different elements.” Unfortunately, while he said this Laurier also drastically increased the ‘head tax’ Macdonald placed on Asian immigrants and maintained the residential school system.

Macdonald himself is a good example of the problem. He’s widely criticized today, but what neither most of his critics or most of his defenders realize is the role of the radical Orange Protestant order in Canada. Many Orangemen, whose motto was “One Flag, One Religion, One Nation”, went crazy when the Catholic Louis Riel hanged the Protestant Thomas Scott for threatening the Metis at Red River, which led to the Northwest Resistances. Many of those same Protestants burned Riel in effigy and cheered when he was executed. Some of them wanted to lynch Riel without even a trial.

Macdonald played a role, but he was far from alone in the injustices inflicted on Indigenous people, Asians or anyone else.

Whether it was Jim Crow laws in the United States or suffragettes only caring about whether white women could vote, the habit of talking big about liberty and rights and only applying them narrowly has a very long history in Anglo-British thought and politics. It exists in other traditions, like whether revolutionary France’s declaration of human rights applied to black Haitian slaves, but the Anglo-British version is the one that had the biggest impact on the world.

Maybe that’s what we should be discussing, instead of just focusing on individual examples.

[Scape]

1st step is admitting you have a problem

[rickc]

I agree with your premise that there has been a lot of talk with very little action, but I think that you are being unfair singling out the Anglo-British. Blacks and other minorities risk their lives attempting to get get to Britain and her former colonies for a better life. Are they risking their lives to get to former Spanish colonies? No they are not. Are they risking their lives to get to former Portuguese colonies? No they are not. Racism is everywhere. Blacks are discriminated against in every Latin American country. Lots of black Americans and black Canadians find out the hard way when they visit the Dominican Republic. As long as they spend all their time at their all inclusive resort, they will have no problem. The workers there are kissing ass hoping to make some tips. Its when you leave the resort and go out into the "real" Dominican Republic that the problems begin. They associate blacks with Hati, whom they despise. Black people will be refused entry to discos and bars in Santo Domingo and other places on the island. No use trying to explain that you are from Canada, they don't care.

Not only does Latin America discriminate against blacks, they also discriminate against darker Latins. Try watching a Mexican soap opera. The main stars are mostly white with blue eyes. The darker Latins are the maids, servants, and villains. You never see a white maid or servant on a Latin soap. Watch some of their news broadcasts out of Latin America. See who is on camera. Chances are good they are not black, or dark. Look at their magazines. Who is on the covers? Brazil did not abolish slavery until 1888. No white people are living in the favelas.

The whiter the better is a saying that is common in Latin America and Asia as well. Asia is fascinated with being white. The vast majority of skin whitening products are sold in Asia. A few years ago I had a Phillipino girl friend turn down a free trip to the Caribbean because she was terrified of getting any darker. This was a very upscale expensive resort. She was willing to pass up on two weeks in paradise rather than get any darker. How pathetic is that?
There are multiple horror stories from Asian Americans who went to teach English in Asia. Asians want a white person to teach English. These days the school wants your picture before the interview. If you are not white, you do not getting hired. Not only blacks but darker Asians get treated like shit in Asia. Asia could very well be the most racist continent on the planet.

Britain and her former colonies are not perfect by any means when it comes to racism, but I do not see any minorities willing to relocate out of those countries. Do you?

[DrCaleb]

rickc rickc:

Britain and her former colonies are not perfect by any means when it comes to racism, but I do not see any minorities willing to relocate out of those countries. Do you?

Fairly narrow focus there. The countries that are actually oppressive are the ones seeing the mass migrations.

People refer to the migrants by such monikers such as "border jumpers" or "invaders".

[JaredMilne]

rickc rickc:

I agree with your premise that there has been a lot of talk with very little action, but I think that you are being unfair singling out the Anglo-British. Blacks and other minorities risk their lives attempting to get get to Britain and her former colonies for a better life. Are they risking their lives to get to former Spanish colonies? No they are not. Are they risking their lives to get to former Portuguese colonies? No they are not. Racism is everywhere. Blacks are discriminated against in every Latin American country. Lots of black Americans and black Canadians find out the hard way when they visit the Dominican Republic. As long as they spend all their time at their all inclusive resort, they will have no problem. The workers there are kissing ass hoping to make some tips. Its when you leave the resort and go out into the "real" Dominican Republic that the problems begin. They associate blacks with Hati, whom they despise. Black people will be refused entry to discos and bars in Santo Domingo and other places on the island. No use trying to explain that you are from Canada, they don't care.

What I was going for here was trying to shift the focus on historical wrongs away from individual figures (Macdonald, Washington, etc.) and onto what I think is the bigger problem. I noted that similar problems exist in other traditions, but it's the Anglo-British one that's had the biggest impact on us specifically in Canada and the U.S.

[rickc]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

rickc rickc:

Britain and her former colonies are not perfect by any means when it comes to racism, but I do not see any minorities willing to relocate out of those countries. Do you?

Fairly narrow focus there. The countries that are actually oppressive are the ones seeing the mass migrations.

People refer to the migrants by such monikers such as "border jumpers" or "invaders".

If someone is illegally entering a country are they not a border jumper? If someone steals things than they are a thief. It is not racist to call a thief a thief just because they are a minority. Countries have the right to control their borders. I totally understand people wanting to better their lot in life. I do have a problem with people that act like they have an absolute right to come to my counrty.

[rickc]

JaredMilne JaredMilne:

rickc rickc:

I agree with your premise that there has been a lot of talk with very little action, but I think that you are being unfair singling out the Anglo-British. Blacks and other minorities risk their lives attempting to get get to Britain and her former colonies for a better life. Are they risking their lives to get to former Spanish colonies? No they are not. Are they risking their lives to get to former Portuguese colonies? No they are not. Racism is everywhere. Blacks are discriminated against in every Latin American country. Lots of black Americans and black Canadians find out the hard way when they visit the Dominican Republic. As long as they spend all their time at their all inclusive resort, they will have no problem. The workers there are kissing ass hoping to make some tips. Its when you leave the resort and go out into the "real" Dominican Republic that the problems begin. They associate blacks with Hati, whom they despise. Black people will be refused entry to discos and bars in Santo Domingo and other places on the island. No use trying to explain that you are from Canada, they don't care.

What I was going for here was trying to shift the focus on historical wrongs away from individual figures (Macdonald, Washington, etc.) and onto what I think is the bigger problem. I noted that similar problems exist in other traditions, but it's the Anglo-British one that's had the biggest impact on us specifically in Canada and the U.S.

I know what you were trying to say, and I agree with you. I did not mean to hijack your thread. I get carried away on this topic because racism is the only thing we talk about these days in the states. Its a topic that needed to addressed, but its way out of control now. Every day I have to listen to black millionaires who got carried through school because they can put a ball in a hoop, tell me how racist my country is. Every day I have to listen to black gangbanging thugs that have spent most of their lives incarcerated, but are now millionaires by rapping nigger this, nigger that, nigger, nigger, nigger, nigger, nigger, nigger, tell me how racist my country is. Think about that one for a minute. Do you really that MLK Jr. spent his life getting beat up, assaulted, attacked by k9 units,arrested, so his own people can call him a nigger? I don't think so.

A black women flees a Muslim shithole in Africa (where cattle have more rights than women ). She flees to my country. She moves to a state where black people make up less than 7% of the states population. She gets elected to congress at a starting salary of $174,000. How many people on this site are pulling down U.S. $174,000 for a part time job? I constantly have to listen to this ignorant bitch complain about how racist my country is. How many women hold office in Somalia? Any white people holding office in Somalia?

Convicted criminals who are on probation drink until they pass out in a drive through. Instead of taking their rightfully deserved arrest like a man, they grab a gun from the cop and try to shoot the cop with it. The cops rightfully blow his ass away. I am always complaining about police brutality, but these cops could have put 100 rounds through this asshole and I would have been fine with it. Riots break out. Cities burn. I have to listen to how "racist" my country is because some thug ass pos could not take his arrest like a man. Don't do the crime if you can't do the time. The vast majority of these incidents that have stirred up everything has been by some thugass pos that has been convicted before, done time, is currently on probation, acting like a total asshole and fucking up once again. These assholes create their own problems by continually breaking the law. When the police come to rightfully haul their asses away, they throw a fit. They refuse to get in the car. They grab guns. They go for weapons. When things go south, us law abiding citizens have to hear this bullshit about how racist our country is. Here is some free legal advice to these assholes: "STOP BREAKING THE LAW!!!".

So now spoiled NFL asshole millionaires who were carried through school (and took up space in college where someone who actually wanted an education could have been) are wearing the names of these thug ass pos losers on their uniforms. Fuck em!!! Blacks make up less than 14% of the population in the U.S., yet we had a black man in the white house for eight years. That sounds real racist to me/s. How many other countries can say that? Can ANY other country say that? I bet that the U.S. has not only created more black millionaires than any other country on the planet, but probably created more than the rest of the world combined. I am not talking about sons of sheiks in the middle east,I mean blacks that came from nothing and are now millionaires. What country creates more black millionaires than the U.S.? Yet all these millionaires do is whine about how bad they have it working a few days a year. Its way past getting old.

Things are far from perfect in the U.S., that much is true. Work needs to be done, but it is nowhere near what the press is trying to make it out to be. Anyone watching the news outside of the states these days would think that we all spend our free time stringing up blacks from trees.The fact of the matter is that 99% of blacks who get murdered get killed by other blacks. Blacks kill blacks, end of story. White people do not go in the hood. The only white people in the hood are lost tourists. Where white America has failed the blacks is where white democrats tell the blacks that they are victims. They tell them that they will never amount to anything and that they need the democrats to keep the welfare checks coming.

My white ass is not telling blacks to forgo an education so they can say nigger every other word in a rap song, or put a ball in a hoop. My white ass is not telling black men to walk away from their families. My white ass is not telling black women to pop out kids by different fathers every nine months. When you are 20 years old with three kids by three different deadbeat dads who pay zero child support.......what do you think your chances are of ever advancing in corporate America? Your life is pretty much over at that point. The white left in America encourages this behaviour to keep an endless supply of voters dependent on government money. That is where the white guilt should be.

Once again I apologize for getting carried away in your thread. My country is getting carried away. I am sick and tired of people trying to lay the blame for this on my doorstop. Fuck that!!!I am not keeping anyone down and I do NOT want to hear the bullshit. If my white trash ass could come out of the trailer parks of appalachia and succeed, than anyone can. All my white trash friends that I grew up with chose to buy into the bullshit about how they could not succeed without the government. They are all still there in the parks. I have zero sympathy for them. They made their beds, let them lay in them. No different than the hoods or the reservations.

[DrCaleb]

rickc rickc:

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

rickc rickc:

Britain and her former colonies are not perfect by any means when it comes to racism, but I do not see any minorities willing to relocate out of those countries. Do you?

Fairly narrow focus there. The countries that are actually oppressive are the ones seeing the mass migrations.

People refer to the migrants by such monikers such as "border jumpers" or "invaders".

If someone is illegally entering a country are they not a border jumper?

"Border Jumper" was a term created to demonize a group of people for doing what may be completely legal. Crossing a border illegally, as I have written many many times, is perfectly legal for the purposes of claiming asylum. That is international law, and Canada and the US are signatories to it.

If they are illegally entering a country, for work or just to improve their life, then say that. Don't lump the legal reasons in with the illegal ones just so you don't have to deal with reality.

So limiting your question to just former British colonies ignores the reality of what the United States has done in Central and South America to cause people to have to flee their countries and go to Mexico or the US to survive. Calling those people 'border jumpers' in order to be able to justify not helping them distracts from the US governments role in creating them.

The same as it does for economic migrants. The last statistic I saw was that a legal migrant, someone who wants to move to the US for the purposes of becoming a citizen, will have to wait up to 15 years for a visa, and the process takes about 7 to 8 more years. Some countries are not able to offer their citizens temporary working visas, so this is why you have a flood of people trying to get to the US illegally in order to earn themselves and their families back home a living.

rickc rickc:

If someone steals things than they are a thief. It is not racist to call a thief a thief just because they are a minority. Countries have the right to control their borders. I totally understand people wanting to better their lot in life. I do have a problem with people that act like they have an absolute right to come to my counrty.

And yet your country has set up their economic system to exploit undocumented workers, and many of the products you see around you would not be there if not for undocumented workers. So you are stuck in the endless loop of hating undocumented workers, but needing undocumented workers.