[OnTheIce]

andyt andyt:

Like you with your "I won't give taxes to house the homeless, but I do talk to them." How sweet of you.

Never said that, but nice try.

andyt andyt:

The homeless are helped by government action - no individual has those kinds of resources. Buying them a hamburger "with bacon on it" isn't going to cut it. Do what the people of Medicine Hat did - elect a government that will actually step up. (And doubtless see the money they invested actually saved them money down the road.)

Unlike you andy, I've been out there with these people. I was with my work colleges today at a shelter in Toronto preparing food and serving lunch to people. I don't just talk to people, I organize events to help the less fortunate. I even bring out the local hockey teams I coach every year to help the homeless during Christmas. To raise awareness.

The homeless are helped by far more than just government action. Hundreds of thousands of Canadians donate time, money and clothing to help these people....but you wouldn't know anything about that because your a lazy, hypocritical troll that sits on his computer and thinks he's doing his part by talking about homeless people.

Get off your ass and get some credibility behind your agenda. I guarantee you I've spent more money and time on this cause that you ever have.

So until that time comes where you do something to actually help these people, shut your mouth.

[stratos]

What is sad is I suspect this little boy did more for a homeless man then AndyT has ever done.

[2Cdo]

stratos stratos:

What is sad is I suspect this little boy did more for a homeless man then AndyT has ever done.

[2Cdo]

andy wants to give them all homes, on your dime of course.

[Thanos]

You guys know how much agreeing with Andy on anything bothers me but on some levels he's not wrong. If the best thing that happened to this homeless guy is some toddler giving him a burger and a prayer then there's something deeply wrong with the social system he's living in. This kind of incident turns out to be nothing more than stunt-booking for religious folks, the same kind of people who are overwhelmingly hardcore conservative voters who put politicians in power who are openly proud of things like austerity budgeting, elimination of as many programs they can erase that help the poor, and of implementing fiscal policies that favour no one at all except for the wealthy. The 'Jesus loves you' bit shouldn't be used to cover up things like this man lives in a place (Alabama) that's been run by hearts-on-their-sleeves Christians since the place was founded. Yet, in seeming defiance of everything Jesus allegedly said was important, this man ends up dependent on a child to give him some food? If this is the case then there's some serious fucking disconnection between what the Jesus of the Bible wanted people everywhere to do for each other and the Jesus that the people who run Alabama believe in.

Just my rant on this sort of thing. The main thing that pisses me off about religion isn't the message. It's the people who say they follow a messiah or prophet then behave in ways that are the exact opposite of the manner in which the central figure of their religion allegedly commands them to behave. If this incident is about Christianity then the only real Christian in the mix is that little kid. The adults around them who incessantly vote for a pack of cruel and vicious fuck-the-poor politicians, like the kind of politicians that have run a place like Alabama for it's entire history, are about as cognitively disassociated from everything Jesus stood for as a person could possibly get.

[Hyack]

Kudos to the young fella although, speaking for myself, I would have greatly appreciated the food but could definitely have done without the religious aspect that went along with it.

[andyt]

Thanos Thanos:

You guys know how much agreeing with Andy on anything bothers me but on some levels he's not wrong. If the best thing that happened to this homeless guy is some toddler giving him a burger and a prayer then there's something deeply wrong with the social system he's living in. This kind of incident turns out to be nothing more than stunt-booking for religious folks, the same kind of people who are overwhelmingly hardcore conservative voters who put politicians in power who are openly proud of things like austerity budgeting, elimination of as many programs they can erase that help the poor, and of implementing fiscal policies that favour no one at all except for the wealthy. The 'Jesus loves you' bit shouldn't be used to cover up things like this man lives in a place (Alabama) that's been run by hearts-on-their-sleeves Christians since the place was founded. Yet, in seeming defiance of everything Jesus allegedly said was important, this man ends up dependent on a child to give him some food? If this is the case then there's some serious fucking disconnection between what the Jesus of the Bible wanted people everywhere to do for each other and the Jesus that the people who run Alabama believe in.

Just my rant on this sort of thing. The main thing that pisses me off about religion isn't the message. It's the people who say they follow a messiah or prophet then behave in ways that are the exact opposite of the manner in which the central figure of their religion allegedly commands them to behave. If this incident is about Christianity then the only real Christian in the mix is that little kid. The adults around them who incessantly vote for a pack of cruel and vicious fuck-the-poor politicians, like the kind of politicians that have run a place like Alabama for it's entire history, are about as cognitively disassociated from everything Jesus stood for as a person could possibly get.

The guy lives in the same social system as we have - we have plenty of people living marginal lives, with the same fiscal policies voted for by the people who pat themselves on the back for giving this guy a hamburger, "with bacon." Oh, and for talking to the homeless. Lots of talk about how they're doing something, but actually push for doing something that really makes a difference, maybe have to give up a little bit of their stash, no way.

[OnTheIce]

andyt andyt:

The guy lives in the same social system as we have - we have plenty of people living marginal lives, with the same fiscal policies voted for by the people who pat themselves on the back for giving this guy a hamburger, "with bacon." Oh, and for talking to the homeless. Lots of talk about how they're doing something, but actually push for doing something that really makes a difference, maybe have to give up a little bit of their stash, no way.

Keep talking shit.

I give up almost 40% of my income to taxes. I give up hundreds of hours a year, money out of my own pocket, clothes off my back and because I don't want to lose more money to taxes, I'm the bad guy? Get a clue.

Let's throw more money at government programs and have the money wasted on salaries and ignore all other facilities that care for these people because andy says, they don't really make a difference. Nothing good comes from our efforts. Only the government can do it by taking more money from us.

Maybe we all can aspire to just sit on our ass and talk about a problem but don't do anything?

It's OK andy, you keep that job. Let the rest of us do the heavy lifting.

[andyt]

Sure, just keep telling yourself that nothing can be done. Medicine Hat did it. First you provide adequate housing so people can get stabilized. Then you provide proper services, mental health and drug treatment. Last, for those who can, comes skill training. This is something where only government can really make an impact. All it takes is the will, ie the votes.

Those other facilities you talk about, who do you think funds those, to large degree?

[andyt]

Sure, just keep telling yourself that nothing can be done. Medicine Hat did it. First you provide adequate housing so people can get stabilized. Then you provide proper services, mental health and drug treatment. Last, for those who can, comes skill training. This is something where only government can really make an impact. All it takes is the will, ie the votes.

Those other facilities you talk about, who do you think funds those, to large degree? And why give your money to charities, which have their own bureaucracies and spend a lot of money fundraising. Makes much more sense to have one organization, ie the government doing this.

[Thanos]

andyt andyt:

Thanos Thanos:

You guys know how much agreeing with Andy on anything bothers me but on some levels he's not wrong. If the best thing that happened to this homeless guy is some toddler giving him a burger and a prayer then there's something deeply wrong with the social system he's living in. This kind of incident turns out to be nothing more than stunt-booking for religious folks, the same kind of people who are overwhelmingly hardcore conservative voters who put politicians in power who are openly proud of things like austerity budgeting, elimination of as many programs they can erase that help the poor, and of implementing fiscal policies that favour no one at all except for the wealthy. The 'Jesus loves you' bit shouldn't be used to cover up things like this man lives in a place (Alabama) that's been run by hearts-on-their-sleeves Christians since the place was founded. Yet, in seeming defiance of everything Jesus allegedly said was important, this man ends up dependent on a child to give him some food? If this is the case then there's some serious fucking disconnection between what the Jesus of the Bible wanted people everywhere to do for each other and the Jesus that the people who run Alabama believe in.

Just my rant on this sort of thing. The main thing that pisses me off about religion isn't the message. It's the people who say they follow a messiah or prophet then behave in ways that are the exact opposite of the manner in which the central figure of their religion allegedly commands them to behave. If this incident is about Christianity then the only real Christian in the mix is that little kid. The adults around them who incessantly vote for a pack of cruel and vicious fuck-the-poor politicians, like the kind of politicians that have run a place like Alabama for it's entire history, are about as cognitively disassociated from everything Jesus stood for as a person could possibly get.

The guy lives in the same social system as we have - we have plenty of people living marginal lives, with the same fiscal policies voted for by the people who pat themselves on the back for giving this guy a hamburger, "with bacon." Oh, and for talking to the homeless. Lots of talk about how they're doing something, but actually push for doing something that really makes a difference, maybe have to give up a little bit of their stash, no way.

Given that it's the US the reasons why this man is homeless and begging for food could have multiple causes. Maybe it's simply his own fault for getting into booze or drugs and trapped him in something he can't get out of. But it could also be from a mental illness that the system doesn't want to spend any money addressing because that kind of spending is an investment without profit. Or maybe it's because any employment he had got shipped overseas and helping the ones that lost their jobs in financial antics like that is too much to ask for because it would mean admitting that Saint Free Market has an ugly side and the masters of the universe that do things like shipping jobs overseas can never, ever admit anything like that. Maybe he had a home of his own once but someone on Wall Street saw his possessions, and those of millions of others like him, as too big a plum to leave on the tree and used a criminal scheme to take everything they could from him. What is this man's age? Did he serve in the military? Did he end up serving in any of the wars ranging from Vietnam to Mr. Bush's adventures in Iraq or Afghanistan? Did he come back home having seen or done things that left his brain scrambled by PTSD and the only thing in his mind anymore is a screaming that won't ever go away?

These are the things that should be noted, because they're far more important than the touchy-feely of a good-hearted little kid giving this person some food. I love that kid, there should be hundreds million more exactly like him. If there were then maybe this world would make some headway out of the stagnant water of greed and indifference it seems permanently becalmed in. There's a serious problem when the background society this man is in has become so vicious that this kid giving him some food and a prayer is probably the best thing that's happened to him in who knows how long.

[andyt]

We have all the same factors operating here. and the same people patting themselves on the back that giving a homeless man a burger is some noble gesture. Just as the US, we're not willing to spend the up front money that would get these people stabilized and some maybe even making something of themselves, and as a bonus cost less money than the policing and medical costs we incur now.

I read an estimate that it would take 16 billion one time cost to end homelessness. That's 2 points of the GST for a little over a year. I'm certainly willing to pay my share of that.

[BigBri]

Thanos Thanos:

You guys know how much agreeing with Andy on anything bothers me but on some levels he's not wrong. If the best thing that happened to this homeless guy is some toddler giving him a burger and a prayer then there's something deeply wrong with the social system he's living in. This kind of incident turns out to be nothing more than stunt-booking for religious folks, the same kind of people who are overwhelmingly hardcore conservative voters who put politicians in power who are openly proud of things like austerity budgeting, elimination of as many programs they can erase that help the poor, and of implementing fiscal policies that favour no one at all except for the wealthy. The 'Jesus loves you' bit shouldn't be used to cover up things like this man lives in a place (Alabama) that's been run by hearts-on-their-sleeves Christians since the place was founded. Yet, in seeming defiance of everything Jesus allegedly said was important, this man ends up dependent on a child to give him some food? If this is the case then there's some serious fucking disconnection between what the Jesus of the Bible wanted people everywhere to do for each other and the Jesus that the people who run Alabama believe in.

Just my rant on this sort of thing. The main thing that pisses me off about religion isn't the message. It's the people who say they follow a messiah or prophet then behave in ways that are the exact opposite of the manner in which the central figure of their religion allegedly commands them to behave. If this incident is about Christianity then the only real Christian in the mix is that little kid. The adults around them who incessantly vote for a pack of cruel and vicious fuck-the-poor politicians, like the kind of politicians that have run a place like Alabama for it's entire history, are about as cognitively disassociated from everything Jesus stood for as a person could possibly get.

agreed...one should never understate the value of a random act of kindness...he may've been on the verge of suicide for all we know and acts like this could restore one's faith in the human race

[JaredMilne]

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

andyt andyt:

The guy lives in the same social system as we have - we have plenty of people living marginal lives, with the same fiscal policies voted for by the people who pat themselves on the back for giving this guy a hamburger, "with bacon." Oh, and for talking to the homeless. Lots of talk about how they're doing something, but actually push for doing something that really makes a difference, maybe have to give up a little bit of their stash, no way.

Keep talking shit.

I give up almost 40% of my income to taxes. I give up hundreds of hours a year, money out of my own pocket, clothes off my back and because I don't want to lose more money to taxes, I'm the bad guy? Get a clue.

Let's throw more money at government programs and have the money wasted on salaries and ignore all other facilities that care for these people because andy says, they don't really make a difference. Nothing good comes from our efforts. Only the government can do it by taking more money from us.

Maybe we all can aspire to just sit on our ass and talk about a problem but don't do anything?

It's OK andy, you keep that job. Let the rest of us do the heavy lifting.

As with so many other things in Canada, both of you guys are making important points here.

OnTheIce is pointing out the important actions that individuals do every day, donating time, money and all kinds of goods to help the less fortunate. This 5-year old kid is a perfect example of that, of the kind of individual actions that add up to so much more in the long run. Not everybody is going to be covered by government action, particularly when they could fall through the cracks due to not qualifying for certain programs, bureaucratic incompetence, or anything else. The kid in this article, and OnTheIce for that matter, are also putting their time and money where their mouths are...which is something that, to be perfectly honest, I should really be doing more of myself.

But Andy is also pointing out the other side of the issue. Government actions on things like EI, old age pensions, welfare and others provide an important cushion to help people when they lose their jobs, experience changes they never asked for and that change their lives (medical issues, accidents, etc.), and so forth. One thing I've noticed in looking at socialist/Communist countries ranging from Cuba to Russia to Tanzania is that, while the socialists and Communists fucked up the countries' economies, but they also began providing medical care and education to people who'd never had much of either before...which increased everything from literacy to life expectancy.

You guys are showing how both government programs and private actions have an important part to play. We can't expect the government to solve any and every problem that comes up-inevitably it's going to miss people, there are going to be inefficiencies and incompetence, and some people will come away with bad experiences. People may also not want to deal with government agencies for any number of reasons, whether pride, distrust, or what have you.

But on the other hand, private charity can't be expected to solve everything by itself, either. Before government regulations and programs changed things, most people worked long hours for little pay, which didn't really give them much opportunity to really improve their lot in life. Government action made that possible, and it continues to enable people to participate in the economy even when they run into problems that leave them unable to work. It's not a coincidence that the middle class in Canada really boomed with the modern social safety net after World War II.

They each have their strengths and weaknesses, and they can each complement each others' strengths and to some extent cover each other's weaknesses.

That's been one of the major keys to Canada being one of the best countries in the world to live in. It's also an indication that you guys aren't necessarily as opposed in your positions as it might seem at first.

[andyt]

I would take away the tax deduction for charitable contributions. Charities spend a lot of money just trying to raise donations. They have administrative bodies that rival governments, many with very hefty salaries. They work at cross purposed and duplicate effort. Totally inefficient.

The government should be doing this work. Take all the money donated to charities as tax revenue and let the government put in proper programs without duplication of effort. They already have the administrative systems in place, and don't need to spend money to raise money. Of course then people wouldn't be able to pat themselves on the back and get their pics in the paper about how generous they are. They'd have to make do with the warm glow of knowing that their tax dollars are going to help people who need help and how it's actually saving society money because poverty, untreated addiction and mental health cost more than actually buckling down and dealing with them.