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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 5:01 pm
 


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A man has died in hospital after being viciously beaten in front of about a dozen witnesses on an Edmonton LRT train last Friday.
“It looked like just some little scrap between two people … but then it kind of escalated. One guy was, like, telling the other one ‘stop, stop, stop, stop,’” said Scott McLeod, who was in the train car when the attack began.
Police were alerted to an attack going on inside the LRT car as it approached Clareview Station just before 2 p.m Friday.
Homicide Det. Colin Derkson says John Hollar, 29, was assaulted by another man shortly after the northbound train left Coliseum station.
The train stopped at Belvedere station, letting other passengers off, but the two men remained.
“The doors closed. The suspect was still assaulting the victim,” said Ron Gabruck, director of operational support for Edmonton Transit.
He says the decision was made to continue to the next station, about 3 minutes away, where it would be easier for police and emergency workers to reach the train.
By the time the police arrived, Hollar was unconscious and the suspect had run from the scene.
“The driver is the person actually who came out and flagged down the first police officer, and then they ran together and he was able to point him out,” Derkson said.
“If it wasn’t for the great teamwork … we probably would not have found [the suspect], certainly not that quickly. And it’s possible we would not have been able to identify him.”
Hollar was taken to hospital in critical condition with head injuries, where he died two days later.
Jeremy Newborn, 29, is charged with aggravated assault, but police say those charges will now be upgraded to second-degree murder.
Police believe the two men may have known one another.
Witness Scott McLeod says the train driver didn't offer any explanation to passengers as to what was being done to stop the assault.
He says he hit the yellow emergency bar on the side of the train, and was asked what the emergency was. But he didn't hear anything back after describing the attack.
“I didn’t hear any response. I was very scared.”
McLeod and the rest of the passengers in the car got off when the train stopped at Belvedere station, but says he was surprised when the train continued on to Clareview.
“I was kind of surprised that the train didn’t just stop at Belvedere. I was expecting some kind of voice to come over the system, to tell people not to get on the train.”
However, Gabruck says the security systems on the train worked as they were meant to. Passengers alerted the driver of the attack through a phone located in the car.
The driver was able to monitor the assault through a video camera.
“In fact, in this case, the driver did go over the PA system and did advise that police were called. The assault continued.”
Investigators are now reviewing video surveillance.
Gabruck says it is the first homicide on Edmonton’s LRT system.
There have, however, been violent incidents on the system’s platforms. In May 2010, a woman was shot and killed in Stadium station after an argument. In November, three men were charged with attempted murder after pushing another man onto the tracks at Churchill station.
Gabruck says despite those incidents, Edmonton’s transit system isn’t any more dangerous than any other city's.
“I don’t think the Edmonton transit system is any different from any subway or transit system city across the country,” he said.
“Edmonton is a big city. Crime is going to happen.”


Do you think running the train for 3 more minutes while the beating continued was the right thing to do? There were over a dozen passengers on board - could they not have intervened as a group?


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 5:37 pm
 


So you would have stepped up Andy? I kinda doubt that.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 5:43 pm
 


andyt wrote:
Do you think running the train for 3 more minutes while the beating continued was the right thing to do? There were over a dozen passengers on board - could they not have intervened as a group?


Very easy to judge from the comfort of your computer.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 5:48 pm
 


OnTheIce wrote:
Very easy to judge from the comfort of your computer.

You can tell right from wrong even in front of a computer.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 5:53 pm
 


Xort wrote:
OnTheIce wrote:
Very easy to judge from the comfort of your computer.

You can tell right from wrong even in front of a computer.

Yes but you armchair generals seem quick to point out cowards...


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 5:57 pm
 


Guy_Fawkes wrote:
Xort wrote:
OnTheIce wrote:
Very easy to judge from the comfort of your computer.

You can tell right from wrong even in front of a computer.

Yes but you armchair generals seem quick to point out cowards...


I think it's a valid question, no?


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 6:00 pm
 


Guy_Fawkes wrote:
Xort wrote:
OnTheIce wrote:
Very easy to judge from the comfort of your computer.

You can tell right from wrong even in front of a computer.

Yes but you armchair generals seem quick to point out cowards...

I don't by asking that question, Andy is "pointing out cowards" at all.

I think it is a valid question. There must be a reason why no one did anything, or why the driver thought it was better to drive that 3 minutes more. Obviously, no one thought it was that bad...

That does not make anyone a coward, nor is Andy suggesting that, imho.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 6:20 pm
 


Nope. That's just GF projecting again. After I posted the question, I thought the people who rushed off the train when it first stopped likely thought the proper personnel would take care of it at that point. And the proper personnel who made the decision to run the train to the next stop didn't think the beating would be that bad. But, maybe they'll make a different decision next time.

Never know tho. I've intervened in an assault on Skytrain, and what I got was muttering from fellow passengers how I got the train stopped at the next station and they would be late. It's called diffusion of responsibility, and we've seen the problems it can cause.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 6:58 pm
 


andyt wrote:
Do you think running the train for 3 more minutes while the beating continued was the right thing to do? There were over a dozen passengers on board - could they not have intervened as a group?


Well, in fairness to the operator, there is only one stop in between Coliseum and Clareview (Belvedere) and it all depends on when he saw the signal. Additionally, the North Division Police station is two blocks from the Clareview Station, while Belevdere is a good 20 blocks from the police station. It also depends on where available cruisers were at the moment and/or that the driver may have been instructed to proceed to Clareview by EPS. Guess we'll have to wait for all the details to come out.

As for the passengers, that kind of stunned reaction is the normal one. IIRC correctly, most studies have shown that most people expect someone else to intervene and so never do.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 7:05 pm
 


Xort wrote:
OnTheIce wrote:
Very easy to judge from the comfort of your computer.

You can tell right from wrong even in front of a computer.


There's a difference between seeing what's being done is wrong or right and throwing yourself into harms way to protect a stranger.

For family and such, it would be second nature to most but for a stranger, many people stand back and are timid, in shock and unsure what to do.

So it's easy to sit back and judge the situation based on a couple of words on a computer screen, it's a whole different ballgame being placed at the scene watching a man being beaten to death.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 7:27 pm
 


Brenda wrote:
I think it is a valid question. There must be a reason why no one did anything,


Well one guy did push the emerg button while he was shitting his pants, and for all we know the rest of the passengers could have been granny's and grand kids going shopping.

Brenda wrote:
or why the driver thought it was better to drive that 3 minutes more.


Now your trying to blame the driver, he was told by the ETS Call Centre to continue to the next station where emergency services were waiting, that wasn't his call to make.

Everyone says they'd be a hero in this situation but once they see that first boot, land squarely on someone's face, that usually keeps most heros in their seats if there were any on the train to begin with.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 7:56 pm
 


OnTheIce wrote:
Xort wrote:
OnTheIce wrote:
Very easy to judge from the comfort of your computer.

You can tell right from wrong even in front of a computer.


There's a difference between seeing what's being done is wrong or right and throwing yourself into harms way to protect a stranger.

For family and such, it would be second nature to most but for a stranger, many people stand back and are timid, in shock and unsure what to do.

So it's easy to sit back and judge the situation based on a couple of words on a computer screen, it's a whole different ballgame being placed at the scene watching a man being beaten to death.

I've never been shy about stepping in and stopping fights and in a lot of them, I got the worst of it, although it's never been too bad... but that's only because none of them had a gun or knife, then I could have been hurt bad, or worse.

You need one person to act first, then usually the others will step in to help.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 7:58 pm
 


Alta_redneck wrote:
Brenda wrote:
I think it is a valid question. There must be a reason why no one did anything,


Well one guy did push the emerg button while he was shitting his pants, and for all we know the rest of the passengers could have been granny's and grand kids going shopping.
Yeah, or something. I wasn't there, could not tell you who were on that train, but I am certainly not blaming anyone.
Quote:
Brenda wrote:
or why the driver thought it was better to drive that 3 minutes more.


Now your trying to blame the driver, he was told by the ETS Call Centre to continue to the next station where emergency services were waiting, that wasn't his call to make.

Everyone says they'd be a hero in this situation but once they see that first boot, land squarely on someone's face, that usually keeps most heros in their seats if there were any on the train to begin with.

How am I blaming anyone? He must have had his reasons. According to you, it was the ETS call centre telling him so. Valid enough.

"everyone" does definitely NOT say they'd be a hero. Definitely not me. I applaud the ones that are, and DO take action, but it is far from common behaviour. The expectation that it is common behaviour is a wrong one...


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 10:06 am
 


andyt wrote:
There were over a dozen passengers on board - could they not have intervened as a group?


No. Sheep are never aggressive, even in groups.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 10:10 am
 


Well, I've resolved the question to my satisfaction. There was little time to act before the doors opened and people got off expecting official personnel to intervene. They weren't riding with this guy as he kicked the other to death.


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