[ShepherdsDog]

Yes...reasoning with a 2 or 3 year old is just such an effective technique. A child that has been spanked needs to have the reason given for the punishment. What's scary to me is that many of the self proclaimed experts in the field of child 'psychology' can't differentiate between physical abuse and punishment.

[Canadian_Mind]

just wait till verbal punishments are deemed verbal abuse...

[ShepherdsDog]

As a teacher you can face some serious shit(from assholes) for verbally reprimanding a student.

[Gunnair]

Psudo wrote:

Children raised with spanking are more prone to act in more physically aggressive ways. Clearly this is harmful and must be stopped.

Children raised by gay parents are more prone to act in more sexually experimental ways. Clearly this is entirely acceptable and harmless.

Maybe we don't agree what "harm" is.

Sweet. Another platform for banning gay marriage.

[Gunnair]

andyt wrote:

Quote:

"Kids have to learn how to cope with frustration, how to share and how to be patient," Sirl said. "Parents teach them how to do that."

First we have to teach a lot of parents how to do that for themselves.

You have kids, right?

[Psudo]

Gunnair wrote:

Sweet. Another platform for banning gay marriage.

No. I'm generally in favor of gay parenting, and of spanking, and for the same reasons.

My point is that sex and violence are treated differently, and which one you despise more informs your position on what parenting practices are acceptable. If you're against spanking and for gay parenting it is probably because you find even the slightest hints of violence abhorrent but have no problem with widespread adventurous sexuality. If you're more of a prude and boxed in college, you probably have the opposite position. The debate is about what "harm" means, and there is no universal standard. The parallel with gay parenting helps out our personal biases into perspective.

I also dispute the argument that physical discipline and development of logical skills and rational understanding of rules are mutually exclusive. The article says "Instead of saying, 'do this [be]cause I told you so,' Sirl said, it's best to explain to kids why there are rules." It's good to do that, but doing that doesn't inherently eliminate any role for spanking. If they're not listening to your explanations, they might listen better after a few slaps on the butt and time out.

Most adults could use that, too. =]

[andyt]

Gunnair wrote:

andyt wrote:

Quote:

"Kids have to learn how to cope with frustration, how to share and how to be patient," Sirl said. "Parents teach them how to do that."

First we have to teach a lot of parents how to do that for themselves.

You have kids, right?

I see. You disagree that there are a lot of adults who have trouble dealing with frustration, and know how to share and be patient. Nothing in the news that would indicate otherwise, nope, never. No drunks and druggies. No roadragers. No shit kickers. Etc...

[Gunnair]

andyt wrote:

Gunnair wrote:

You have kids, right?

I see. You disagree that there are a lot of adults who have trouble dealing with frustration, and know how to share and be patient. Nothing in the news that would indicate otherwise, nope, never. No drunks and druggies. No roadragers. No shit kickers. Etc...

You have kids, right?

[ShepherdsDog]

not even close. more of a....

[raydan]

I know nothing about cars but I can take a guess... is that a Reliant K?

[Brenda]

It looks a lot like the car I am driving now

[andyt]

Quote:

All of this evidence suggests that spanking is always a mistake. Nevertheless, some people suggest such research has things the wrong way around - specifically, they argue that difficult and aggressive children are more likely to be spanked, not that children who are spanked become more aggressive.

Fortunately, several of the reviews studied, tested and falsified that hypothesis. For example, some studies that controlled for children's anti-social behaviour still found an association between physical punishment and later anti-social behaviour. And furthermore, children's aggressive behaviour declined in a study in which parents were taught to rely less on physical punishment.

These studies suggest that a causal relationship between spanking and aggressive behaviour really does exist. And they suggest something else - that if we want to ensure children are raised in the best possible environments, we need to ensure that parents and potential parents are educated about the effects of, and alternatives to, physical punishment.

Many parents might, for instance, believe that spanking works since it does often result in a child ceasing troublesome behaviour. But parents need to know that those effects are likely temporary and short-term, while the damage done by spanking may be long-term or permanent.

Read more: http://www.vancouversun.com/health/trou ... z1m3gXT4To

[Psudo]

The actual article Ron Ensom and Joan Durrant wrote is entitled "Joint Statement on Physical Punishment of Children and Youth" and is on pages 28-29 of Canada's Children.

The criticism of "physical punishment" (the word "spank" does not appear in the article; "hit" is also commonly used) is that "physical punishment of children and youth plays no useful role in their upbringing and poses only risks to their development." As is clear to any parent who has seen first-hand any change of behavior due to spanking, this is not true in the short-term. This is a description of the long-term effects. The question of spanking is, then, an exchange, short term benefit for some risk of long-term detriment. If a parent believes that they can intentionally evade the consequences of that long-term risk (a plausible scenario, even defended by "a few studies" according to your source), this becomes a beneficial exchange; short-term benefit with minimal or no side effects.

An illuminating aside from the article: "(three quarters of substantiated cases of child physical abuse in Canada are incidents of physical punishment)". I take this to mean that a significant amount of full-on physical abuse is grouped in with spanking as if there is no distinction. Parents who spank certainly make a distinction between spanking a child and battering them black-and-blue; can a thorough investigation of the issue avoid consideration of that perspective? If the research has not made that distinction, a lot more of those studies would take the "makes no difference" stance and support some parents' theory of short-term benefit at no cost. I can't actually say if that methodological mistake occurred because this is not a scientific paper and has little to say about methodology. Certainly Ensom and Durrant make no attempt to make that distinction in their informal writing.

So, congratulations! Your sources prove that the issue lies where we all suspected it was anyway; violence is bad, but spanking isn't necessarily. But some want to call it assault anyway.

[GreenTiger]

ShepherdsDog wrote:

As a teacher you can face some serious shit(from assholes) for verbally reprimanding a student.

In the Catholic schools I went to there was complete freedom of choice: you could choose to fall in line and do what you were told or you could be a JO and suffer the consequences.

[Gunnair]

andyt wrote:

Quote:

All of this evidence suggests that spanking is always a mistake. Nevertheless, some people suggest such research has things the wrong way around - specifically, they argue that difficult and aggressive children are more likely to be spanked, not that children who are spanked become more aggressive.

Fortunately, several of the reviews studied, tested and falsified that hypothesis. For example, some studies that controlled for children's anti-social behaviour still found an association between physical punishment and later anti-social behaviour. And furthermore, children's aggressive behaviour declined in a study in which parents were taught to rely less on physical punishment.

These studies suggest that a causal relationship between spanking and aggressive behaviour really does exist. And they suggest something else - that if we want to ensure children are raised in the best possible environments, we need to ensure that parents and potential parents are educated about the effects of, and alternatives to, physical punishment.

Many parents might, for instance, believe that spanking works since it does often result in a child ceasing troublesome behaviour. But parents need to know that those effects are likely temporary and short-term, while the damage done by spanking may be long-term or permanent.

Read more: http://www.vancouversun.com/health/trou ... z1m3gXT4To

You have kids, right?