[Public_Domain]

I'd like secularism to finally become the word of the day and we turn the churches and temples into auditoriums and schools, universally condemn and mock religious sentiment, and wipe it all out through apathy, indifference, and education within the next 20 years. Just get it over with, but that idea's a little too Marxist.

[DrCaleb]

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

And I cannot believe that 80% of Canadians said at the beginning of the election call "Screw healthcare, screw the economy, screw youth unemployment; the most important thing to me is telling women what they can and cannot wear".

80% of Canadian support Harper's position on the issue. Never did I say 80% of people had this at the top of their list.

Nor did I say you did. I said I can't believe for such a mundane thing how much election debate it's taken up when we have some real problems.

Interestingly;

$1:

Even more – 64% – agreed, “regardless of whether I like the niqab, it’s not really my place to say what others should or shouldn’t wear”. 77% said the same about the hijab.

http://abacusdata.ca/niqabs-hijabs-anxi ... mmodation/

So it's not a 'hot button' issue with most people.

[N_Fiddledog]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

There is nothing from stopping these women from not wearing the veil, because they must remove the veil when they take the oath of citizenship, but they obviously want to wear it when they stand for the ceremony.

I'm confused. What exactly are we for or against here?

See I'm a bit of a Libertarian myself. I'm basically for doing your own thing until it interferes with somebody else's.

So if Harper is saying no backward cult can wear their backward cult uniform ever, I'd be opposed to that. I'd agree with him that it looked dumb and they'd be farther ahead if they integrated, but ultimately if they're not interfering with anybody else, leave them alone. I'd be more in favor of not letting the lunatic fringe and their cultural enforcers into Canada in the first place. No fuss, no muss, and we get to keep our culture.

But if Harper is only opposed to people hiding their faces during citizenship oaths I could see that as presenting a potential danger to those already here. So yeah, go Steve on that one.

As to this ceremony, I'm not sure I get that. What is it? Why wouldn't Harper want the face hiders concealing their identities there? Are you sure that's what he's opposing?

As to these idiot Progressive judges twisting the law that should have dealt with all this in the first place, screw them.

[OnTheIce]

Lemmy Lemmy:

I don't know what liberals are defending but what I'm defending is the individual right to choose what to wear. Until muslim women step up and say they don't want to wear whatever it is they call it, then they ought to be allowed to do so.

You and I don't have that right.

There are lots of items of clothing that we cannot wear because it breaks certain laws. Kids can't wear certain things in school, etc.

[OnTheIce]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

Nor did I say you did. I said I can't believe for such a mundane thing how much election debate it's taken up when we have some real problems.

Canadian values and traditions are important to some people.

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

So it's not a 'hot button' issue with most people.

Good thing, cause nobody said it was.

[Lemmy]

Thanos Thanos:

I refuse to respect any religion that has the purpose of halting human advancement and is intent on dragging the world back into a primitive and terror-saturated past.

I don't respect any religion because it's all bullshit. They all impede human advancement. That was neat how you slipped in an assertion that muslims are intent on "dragging the world...", which is, of course, bigoted nonsense that would be easily dispelled by spending a few minutes with some muslims. The muslims I see every day are too busy working, going to school, enjoying life with friends and family and pretty much doing the same things non-muslim Canadians are doing to be dragging the world anywhere.

I have reduced respect for people for all kinds of reasons: religious folk, fat people, cigarette smokers, rednecks, skateboard punks, hockey parents, etc. because I don't respect their choices. But you don't need to respect their choice to respect their right to choose. Because their choices are NONE OF MY BUSINESS.

[DrCaleb]

N_Fiddledog N_Fiddledog:

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

There is nothing from stopping these women from not wearing the veil, because they must remove the veil when they take the oath of citizenship, but they obviously want to wear it when they stand for the ceremony.

I'm confused. What exactly are we for or against here?

The right to be left the fuck alone.

N_Fiddledog N_Fiddledog:

See I'm a bit of a Libertarian myself. I'm basically for doing your own thing until it interferes with somebody else's.

So if Harper is saying no backward cult can wear their backward cult uniform ever, I'd be opposed to that. I'd agree with him that it looked dumb and they'd be farther ahead if they integrated, but ultimately if they're not interfering with anybody else, leave them alone. I'd be more in favor of not letting the lunatic fringe and their cultural enforcers into Canada in the first place. No fuss, no muss, and we get to keep our culture.

Wait, what? You are for doing your own thing, unless Harper tells you otherwise? And how are two women who refuse to show their face during the citizenship ceremony affecting Canadian culture?

N_Fiddledog N_Fiddledog:

But if Harper is opposed to people hiding their faces during citizenship oaths I could see that as presenting a potential danger to those already here. So yeah, go Steve on that one.

As to this ceremony, I'm not sure I get that. What is it? Why wouldn't Harper want the face hiders concealing their identities there? Are you sure that's what he's opposing?

Except, they must show their faces during the oath to the Judge. That's the law. You knew that, right? It the ceremony afterwards, with everybody else, that they want to remain veiled.

N_Fiddledog N_Fiddledog:

As to these idiot Progressive judges twisting the law that should have dealt with all this in the first place, screw them.

They are interpreting the Constitution vs the law. Yet another one that Harper was told would be unconstitutional, but he rammed through Parliament with no lube anyway.

[Lemmy]

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

You and I don't have that right.

There are lots of items of clothing that we cannot wear because it breaks certain laws. Kids can't wear certain things in school, etc.

School dress codes are not law. When religious freedom and law conflict (ie, Sihks wanting to not wear hardhats or motorcycle helmets) then the law can limit religious freedom, and I'm okay with that.

[Thanos]

N_Fiddledog N_Fiddledog:

See I'm a bit of a Libertarian myself. I'm basically for doing your own thing until it interferes with somebody else's.

Bullshit you're a libertarian. From the maniacs who want to abolish all birth control thru to a busybodying little bitch like Kim Davis you've been openly on the side of every conservative Christian crank who came along and used their religion to justify their blatant interference in other people's lives.

[BartSimpson]

Lemmy Lemmy:

The KKK is a hate group a designated terrorist organization. Islam is not

That's interesting because in the past twenty years the KKK has committed an awful lot less terrorism than has been carried out by moslems in the same time.

Seems to me that Islam should be designated a terrorist organization since they're so much busier than the lay-abouts from the Klan.

[DrCaleb]

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

So it's not a 'hot button' issue with most people.

Good thing, cause nobody said it was.

It sure seems to be, with how often Conservatives are sucking up to their base by commenting on such things as 'perfect unaccented English' instead of things like 'fresh potable water for everybody'. I'd think fresh water was a 'Canadian value' too.

[N_Fiddledog]

Why would anybody want face-hiders coming through customs in the first place?

If they're not face-hiding there what makes them think they're allowed to face-hide for other public registrations?

[BartSimpson]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

The right to be left the fuck alone.

And as we are seeing in Europe that right is wholly incompatible with Islam.

[Thanos]

Lemmy Lemmy:

Thanos Thanos:

I refuse to respect any religion that has the purpose of halting human advancement and is intent on dragging the world back into a primitive and terror-saturated past.

I don't respect any religion because it's all bullshit. They all impede human advancement. That was neat how you slipped in an assertion that muslims are intent on "dragging the world...", which is, of course, bigoted nonsense that would be easily dispelled by spending a few minutes with some muslims. The muslims I see every day are too busy working, going to school, enjoying life with friends and family and pretty much doing the same things non-muslim Canadians are doing to be dragging the world anywhere.

I have reduced respect for people for all kinds of reasons: religious folk, fat people, cigarette smokers, rednecks, skateboard punks, hockey parents, etc. because I don't respect their choices. But you don't need to respect their choice to respect their right to choose. Because their choices are NONE OF MY BUSINESS.

And I'll keep repeating the contention that these choices can be false because nothing that comes from religious-based indoctrination, intimidation, coercion, bullying, browbeating, and outright physical brutality can ever be considered as free will.

Please also pay more attention to my to-and-fro's with Bart and Fiddy. I'm generally about as fond towards Christians, the social conservative ones anyway, as I am towards Muslims.

[Public_Domain]

Thanos Thanos:

N_Fiddledog N_Fiddledog:

See I'm a bit of a Libertarian myself. I'm basically for doing your own thing until it interferes with somebody else's.

Bullshit you're a libertarian. From the maniacs who want to abolish all birth control thru to a busybodying little bitch like Kim Davis you've been openly on the side of every conservative Christian crank who came along and used their religion to justify their blatant interference in other people's lives.