[Canadaka]

I admit that I have basically believed that the climate is changing and the earth is warming and this is caused by man for several years. The Inconvienant truth definatly had an impact, like it had on many.

With the increase in press recently I began looking at opposing views to get a better understanding of them. I've done a bunch of reading and watched a documentary called "Global Warming or Global Governance?"
http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/3807470 ... __-_DVDrip

Its not high budget but it presents some interesting material, I don't know if its accurate or not, just like anything presenting in these type of documentaries, even the inconvienant truth. It goes into stuff like CO2 is actualy good for the climate, global warming isnt man-made, cosmic radiation, sun spots, huricans arn't increasing and lots more.
(The 2nd half of the doc is kinda bullshit, conspiracy theory about global government). What makes it seem confincing is the seemingly high ranking scientists and officials interviewed, several from Canada.

It seems there are just so many different ways to measure temperature that either side can use it to their advantage.

I would like to find a "believer" documentary that debunks all this stuff brought up in this video, if it exists.

Also interesting is a debate put on by NPR
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... Id=9082151 (you can download an MP3 of the debate)

Basically i don't know what to believe now, there are so many partisan views. I've seen so many different temperature history graphs I dunno which to beleive.

I'm not saying i now don't believe global warming is caused by man, but i'm certainly much more skeptical. And I don't know how to optain the actual truth.

Either way its no reason not to try and reduce CO2 or reduce pollution. Its not a reason to not try to live green and sustainable, there are tons of other reasons to do so. I try to be a fairly energy conscience and green person/lifestyle, but i admit the main factor driving this is self interest in saving money.


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There seems to be many different viewpoints on this debate, so I wanted to add a few to a poll to see where CKA members stand. This is an open poll meaning you can change your vote at anytime.

[gigs]

Global Warming has happened in the past but it was not caused by man, it is now cooling.

one more option for the poll

[Gunnair]

Global warming is happening and man is contributing.


I don't think we're the sole cause, however, our actions are contributing through the increase of pollution (CO2) and the decrease of biomass (rainforest, temperate forest)

[dino_bobba_renno]

Gunnair wrote:

Global warming is happening and man is contributing.


I don't think we're the sole cause, however, our actions are contributing through the increase of pollution (CO2) and the decrease of biomass (rainforest, temperate forest)

Ditto, Gunnair put it quite well. There is something happening but I don't believe it is mankind’s CO2 emissions alone that are the cause *(and I resent the elite of this world ramming their own hypocritical self serving agenda's down my throat).

One thing I would add though is my biggest opposition to the whole CO2 the sky is falling thing is that it tends to obscure other more equally if not more important issue's; water conservation, air pollution, soil contamination, soil erosion, irresponsible industrial fishing practices just to name a few and the mother of all issues over population. If take the time to look deeply enough into any environmental issue you'll all ways find that over population is at the heart of all of these concerns.

[Gunnair]

dino_bobba_renno wrote:

Gunnair wrote:

Global warming is happening and man is contributing.


I don't think we're the sole cause, however, our actions are contributing through the increase of pollution (CO2) and the decrease of biomass (rainforest, temperate forest)

Ditto, Gunnair put it quite well. There is something happening but I don't believe it is mankind’s CO2 emissions alone that are the cause *(and I resent the elite of this world ramming their own hypocritical self serving agenda's down my throat).

One thing I would add though is my biggest opposition to the whole CO2 the sky is falling thing is that it tends to obscure other more equally if not more important issue's; water conservation, air pollution, soil contamination, soil erosion, irresponsible industrial fishing practices just to name a few and the mother of all issues over population. If take the time to look deeply enough into any environmental issue you'll all ways find that over population is at the heart of all of these concerns.

[BartSimpson]

gigs wrote:

Global Warming has happened in the past but it was not caused by man, it is now cooling.

one more option for the poll

Option #5 seems to cover that.

[BartSimpson]

I'm on for #3: Global warming is happening and is NOT caused by man and is NOT a crisis

It's just something that's been going on for 20,000 years since the peak of the current ice age and warming is to be expected as we near the end of this ice age.

It's not a crisis and it is not something we can control. When you dig into the AGW alarmist claptrap even they admit it when they say that if we cut human CO2 emissions to zero we'd only slow down the ongoing warming trend by two or three years.

Meaning, for instance, if the global average temp will be 1C higher in 2100 if we do nothing then if we spend untold fortunes to put CO2 emissions to zero tomorrow it will instead be 1C higher in 2103.

The cost-benefit just isn't there.

[BartSimpson]

Trev, thanks for the poll!

[Canadaka]

I'm surprised people have checked "The earth is actually cooling", there is little to know evidence or data for this. Even most of the people who don't believe global warming is caused by man or CO2 still believe the earth is warming.

[BartSimpson]

Canadaka wrote:

I'm surprised people have checked "The earth is actually cooling", there is little to know evidence or data for this. Even most of the people who don't believe global warming is caused by man or CO2 still believe the earth is warming.

Considering the problems with the UEA data sets and now the Russians noting that about 3,000 of their weather stations are being omitted from global temperature data I'll allow that *if* the earth were cooling we quite possibly would not know.

The recent and unusual summer iceberg activity near New Zealand indicates a cooling in the southern oceans so I will allow for the possibility that the world may be cooling. So far as I know, it is warming but not at some crisis level or anything.

[Brenda]

IMO, it should be a non-issue, since the earth has been warming and cooling and warming again (and cooling again, too...) for as long as it exists.

It's definitely not a crisis, it's not man-made, it's nature taking its course. The arrogance of thinking we are capable of beating mother nature is funny tho

[N_Fiddledog]

It was difficult for me to choose an option from the poll. The issue is complex. The poll option I would click yes to without reservation is too long to put on a poll. Maybe something like...

We appear to be in a long term trend of warming. We don't know exactly how much, for how long, or the true nature of the curves. We may have peaked. We have no way of knowing with any kind of certainty what will happen next. Man can affect climate - certainly regionally, and most likely globally. Human influences can both cool and warm, and should include stuff like aerosols, land-use, soot, influence on the ozone layer, and yes the input of greenhouse gases into the atmosphere. There are also natural influences which could include, Solar (magnetic field, irradiance, or as yet unknown influence), oceans, clouds, earth tilt, and orbit, geo thermic-magnetic-chemical, bio-feedbacks, and as yet undiscovered influences. Nobody knows what the main driver, or combination of drivers are for a particular period. A crisis, of warming or cooling is possible. Nobody knows what exactly may cause either. The best way to deal with the possibility is unbiased research, create a strong economy and prepare to adapt. For example encouraging alternate energies from a strong economy, in a way that makes economic sense is a good idea.

[Zipperfish]

N_Fiddledog wrote:

It was difficult for me to choose an option from the poll. The issue is complex. The poll option I would click yes to without reservation is too long to put on a poll. Maybe something like...

We appear to be in a long term trend of warming. We don't know exactly how much, for how long, or the true nature of the curves. We may have peaked. We have no way of knowing with any kind of certainty what will happen next. Man can affect climate - certainly regionally, and most likely globally. Human influences can both cool and warm, and should include stuff like aerosols, land-use, soot, influence on the ozone layer, and yes the input of greenhouse gases into the atmosphere. There are also natural influences which could include, Solar (magnetic field, irradiance, or as yet unknown influence), oceans, clouds, earth tilt, and orbit, geo thermic-magnetic-chemical, bio-feedbacks, and as yet undiscovered influences. Nobody knows what the main driver, or combination of drivers are for a particular period. A crisis, of warming or cooling is possible. Nobody knows what exactly may cause either. The best way to deal with the possibility is unbiased research, create a strong economy and prepare to adapt. For example encouraging alternate energies from a strong economy, in a way that makes economic sense is a good idea.

Merry Christmas, you old dawg!

[Canadaka]

The doc I watched claimed that man-made CO2 only acounted for a small percentage of CO2 produced, like 6% or something. And that CO2 is only a small percentage of the greenhouse gases. So man-caused CO2 was only like 1% of the total.

Well i don't know if thats all true, but even if it were, is it not possible that the global temperature could be affected greatly only by that 1%.

The other thing i have to think about is if the earth is not being warmed by man-made activities or not warming at all, why are still the majority of scientists, climatologists, politicians, beurocrats, government organizations, private corporations, the UN and so on all saying that it is. I refuse to beleive there is some global consipiracy for global goverment or some crap. Why would different envirmomant and climate agencies from countries all around the world be in on this. Why would presidents and prime ministers including our own buy into it, if it weren't true. I can't see these national agencies and groups working in a global consipracy.

Quote:

For instance, the American Geophysical Union, which includes 50,000 earth, ocean and atmospheric scientists, among others, whose first mission is to value the scientific method (rational skepticism), has stated since 2003 that "Human activities are increasingly altering the Earth's climate. These effects add to natural influences that have been present over Earth's history. Scientific evidence strongly indicates that natural influences cannot explain the rapid increase in global near-surface temperatures observed during the second half of the 20th century. ... The unprecedented increases in greenhouse gas concentrations, together with other human influences on climate over the past century and those anticipated for the future, constitute a real basis for concern."

And if you, like Inhofe, value international expertise, consider the Intergovermental Panel on Climate Change. By some estimates, 2,000 scientists have participated. Their sole purpose is to state consensus about global warming, humankind's role in causing it and its likely effects. The panel spoke clearly last year that it is nearly certain that human pollution is making the climate warmer, and that it will have dire consequences around the world.

Read more: http://www.thedailygreen.com/environmen ... z0adxbYNNQ

how could all of these people by wrong or lying to us?

There is another doc from the UK called "The Great Global Warming Swindle" interesting is a rebutle produced by Cambridge http://www.cpi.cam.ac.uk/gore/PDF/GWS%2 ... onses3.pdf
Its a good read, it counters most the CO2 & solar stuff.

See this is the kinda stuff that is hard "The evidence which has been produced apparently showing a correlation between cloud cover and cosmic rays relies on judicious choice and dubious manipulation of cloud datasets." each side can manipulate date to their agenda, how do we know what is true?

[Canadaka]

also interesting is to search google for "global warming conspiracy debunked".
example: http://www.treehugger.com/files/2009/11 ... piracy.php