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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 9:42 am
 


When Dion was elected and went up to speak, his first words were, 'Let's get ready for the election' or something to that effect.

Ominously, I received a reminder in today's mail. One Jonathan Naymark appeals to me as follow:
Quote:
Please see the attached invite for an exciting fundraising event held in
support of Stephan Dion, leader of the official opposition, as well as
Gerard Kennedy. The event is being hosted by Senator Grafstein.

Thanks,
Jonathan Naymark
Volunteer & Fundraising Coordinator
Gerard Kennedy Campaign/ Campagne de Gerard Kennedy


and just in case I have not received the material sent yesterday, he tells me that Senator Gerry Grafstein, 'invites' me to attend a fund raiser for Dion-Kennedy at the University Club of Toronto on Dec 19. I would have to pay $500, but he helpfully tells me that I would get 350 back from the tax man!

I wonder at the situation the election of Dion has got us into. Why is Dion raising funds to pay for Kennedy's expenses? Did Kennedy really find Dion a kindred soul, or was there an understanding about costs with Kennedy and Martha? From the above, it looks like the latter. So let us consider how each faction stands after the election.


Dion-Kennedy-Martha
Raised per delegate $492.08
Borrowed per delegate $513.65


Rae-Volpe-Brison-Dryden
Raised per delegate $1126.95
Borrowed per delegate $1064.94


Ignatieff
Raised per delegate $701.16
Borrowed per delegate $129.87


Interestingly, Ignatieff came within 200 votes of the win with a total expenditure of only $831 per delegate, as against Dion's faction based victory at a cost of $1,005.74. Rae, of course spent without any thought, and reached a figure that is a staggering $2,191.89 per delegate!

Be that as it may, what is omnious to me are two factors:

a. The first move to pay off Kennedy has begun, thanks to Gerry Grafstein. Kennedy is the first beneficiary of the new 'sponsorship'

b. Rae, for being neutral in the last round, has been promised unspecified help, including a ministership, and - - - also borrowing 'sponsorship'.

By the time Dion has won over the Kennedy and Rae factions, the total payback will be a staggering 2.2 million dollars. The figures are not updated perfectly, and I think it could reach 3 million dollars.

The 3 million dollar figure is ironic in more ways than one:

a. 3 million is the figure that the outgoing Liberal Leadership has been able to set aside as a result of frugal and careful management.

b. 3 million was the entire cost of the convention!

c. 3 million is being raised using the tax credits of people. If Harper calls an election, it WILL JUST NOT be available for election contributions!

The Liberal Party needs to take a view on whether it is corrupt for an elected leader to raise money for defeated candidates who joined him.

The Liberal Party needs to remove the back door entry of moneybags into the election.

Remember again, what it means:

Delegates means the support of Liberals on Super Weekend.

Raised means the support of small contributors.

Borrowed means the influence of moneybags in the election.

Now compare Iggy's borrowings of $129 per Super Weekend delegate with the staggering 513.65 borrowed by the Dion faction! Iggy, we can see had the best mix of raised and borrowed funds compared to his support on Super Weekend! The Dion faction had to borrow an incredible 4 times as much as Iggy, PER DELEGATE, to get ahead of him by merely a 230 vote lead.

I do not think that Dion would allow a fair and square system.


Last edited by Always4Iggy on Thu Dec 14, 2006 8:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 10:07 am
 


Both Dion and Kennedy incurred expenses in the leadership race. It is normal for fundraising dinners to be held to retire those debts. They are hosting a joint function to provide a combined "featured attraction" for the event.

Ignatieff did not win the race. Get over it, always4iggy. Take a lesson from what Martin's supporters did to the party by not knowing how to accept a loss gracefully.

As a liberal it is your duty now post convention to give up fighting an old battle and concentrate on working for the betterment of the party and preparing for an election. I congratulate you on your deep commitment but it is misdirected by looking backward. Take whatever Ignatieff convictions you shared and put them to use at riding association meetings. Or at least grow up and steel yourself for a "next time" instead of undermining your own party.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 10:10 am
 


lily wrote:
Wow... so it was Iggy or nothing for you, eh? Party unity means nothing to you at all?
Of all the...

My dear lady, if you read carefully, it is DION to whom the party means nothing!

Remember, he is paying back his borrowings and those of Kennedy and possibly Rae, a total of 2.2 million, from LIBERAL WELL WISHERS!

That means that much less will be available for the next election effort.

Secondly, why exactly would people help him to pay back? What favours are involved?

I think you need to consider seriously whether Party Unity includes dipping sticky fingers into our Liberal Party's contributor base!

One reason I support Iggy is that he is clean. No borrowings no factions, no tricks!

Don't be too happy that Iggy did not win, because Grafstein is a symptom of the new 'sponsorship'.

As for me, I have a personal target to raise Ten Thousand Dollars in small contributions. Naturally, this will go to Iggy, since he will use it for the NEXT election, not the leadership borrowings which are behind us.

I think Liberal members have to check carefully where their contributions go.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 10:10 am
 


If Dion does not get into power as a result of the negative influence of Ignatieff supporters, Ignatieff will never get the chance to demonstate his strengths. You are really working against yourself Always4iggy.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 10:13 am
 


Firecat wrote:
Both Dion and Kennedy incurred expenses in the leadership race. It is normal for fundraising dinners to be held to retire those debts. They are hosting a joint function to provide a combined "featured attraction" for the event.

Ignatieff did not win the race. Get over it, always4iggy. Take a lesson from what Martin's supporters did to the party by not knowing how to accept a loss gracefully.

As a liberal it is your duty now post convention to give up fighting an old battle and concentrate on working for the betterment of the party and preparing for an election. I congratulate you on your deep commitment but it is misdirected by looking backward. Take whatever Ignatieff convictions you shared and put them to use at riding association meetings. Or at least grow up and steel yourself for a "next time" instead of undermining your own party.
Why should I take a lesson from Martin and not from Dion and Kennedy?

The lessons from Dion and Kennedy are interesting:

a. Create factions, negotiate payback for your faction, if you lose.

b. If you do not have grass roots support, get the rich lenders to support you.

c. Remember, after the leadership convention, you can suck party well wishers to pay your lenders back.

d. Never mind the next election. Winning leadership is important.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 10:16 am
 


Delwin wrote:
If Dion does not get into power as a result of the negative influence of Ignatieff supporters, Ignatieff will never get the chance to demonstate his strengths. You are really working against yourself Always4iggy.
I think the Liberal Party needs Iggy and Iggy can demonstrate his strengths without the Party, thank you.

Don't forget that the Dion team was caught plagiarising from David Sazuki to get its environment document! It is only the ignorance of his delegates which got him elected.

Iggy will continue to influence the world, and definitely Canada, with his publications, speeeches and his fanatical but intelligent following.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 10:19 am
 


Wolf in sheep's clothing methinks. :roll:


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 10:30 am
 


Always4Iggy wrote:
lily wrote:
Wow... so it was Iggy or nothing for you, eh? Party unity means nothing to you at all?
Of all the...

My dear lady, if you read carefully, it is DION to whom the party means nothing!

Remember, he is paying back his borrowings and those of Kennedy and possibly Rae, a total of 2.2 million, from LIBERAL WELL WISHERS!

That means that much less will be available for the next election effort.

Secondly, why exactly would people help him to pay back? What favours are involved?

I think you need to consider seriously whether Party Unity includes dipping sticky fingers into our Liberal Party's contributor base!

One reason I support Iggy is that he is clean. No borrowings no factions, no tricks!

Don't be too happy that Iggy did not win, because Grafstein is a symptom of the new 'sponsorship'.

As for me, I have a personal target to raise Ten Thousand Dollars in small contributions. Naturally, this will go to Iggy, since he will use it for the NEXT election, not the leadership borrowings which are behind us.

I think Liberal members have to check carefully where their contributions go.


A fundraising dinner works by getting people to pay an exorbitant amount for cold chicken, beef or fish (like $1000 a plate). In turn the people who pay this are doing so to come hear a speech by the beneficiary. It is not the Party that pays this. People choose to go or not, for their own reasons - perhaps to curry favour, to be seen with the "right people" to advance your own career or interests.

Now: to make this a BIG success it helps to have a GOOD feature - in this case the new leader and not just the 3rd place kingmaker.

A fundraiser for Ignatieff, now, will appeal less to people because, well, face it, he lost so he's not the "right person to be seen with."

So what you are complaining of is ridiculous and utterly wrong from trhe start. No one is ever forced to go to these things except by the force of their own interests. The leader of the party cannot just unilaterally use party funds to pay his own or someone else's expenses and that is not what is happening here.

If you are to emulate the sore losers who supported Martin and systematiccaly worked to undermine Chretien you might well recall that Chretien won too, over and over and over - and Martin didn't. If a politician can be judged by his supporters, this always4iggy persona demonstrates Dion was the right choice.
If you cannot be comfortable with the duly elected leader the correct course of action for you is to join another party.

Buh-bye.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 10:31 am
 


Delwin wrote:
If Dion does not get into power as a result of the negative influence of Ignatieff supporters, Ignatieff will never get the chance to demonstate his strengths. You are really working against yourself Always4iggy.
Also, remember one important point.

Iggy HAS demonstrated his strength. He came within 225 votes of victory with the following sterling record:

a. Spending one tenth of what Dion spent.

b. Not arranging to pay back election debts of losers like Kennedy. That according to me is a corrupt arrangement. More below.

c. The best record of any candidate in terms of fair practices.

Why is it corrupt to pay back debts of other candidates?

Simply because fund raisers depend on blind supporters such as our Lily here, who don't care how someone became a leader but put their money in his hat. Something like how the TV evangelists become rich!

To Lily, it does not mattter that her money is going to fix votes, and not to win the election against Harper!

Let us ask ourselves whether for instance, Bob Rae, with nearly a million dollars in borrowings, will have the same success in paying back as Kennedy will. Or why Rae, what about Dryden?

Obviously, it is not a level field, if the person elected uses simple persons like Lily to pay back some debts.

It leads to faction politics and leadership fixing agreements.

As we see in the Kennedy Dion fund raiser!


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 10:36 am
 


Firecat wrote:
A fundraiser for Ignatieff, now, will appeal less to people because, well, face it, he lost so he's not the "right person to be seen with."

So what you are complaining of is ridiculous and utterly wrong from trhe start. No one is ever forced to go to these things except by the force of their own interests.
Two serious mistakes on your part"

a. Iggy does not need a fund raiser, his borrowings are small, and he has already the promised support to pay back.

b. No one is forced, but those who go are using their tax writeoffs, and will contribute that much less to the party.

At any time, winning with borrowings is bad, before the election it is worse, since it robs the party of funds to fight Harper.

The Iggy team, unlike the Dion Kennedy Rae people are raising money for the NEXT election! These guys are still trying to pay off their past borrowings!


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 10:42 am
 


This is the forum for Liberal supporters. I think your post belongs in the General thread, always4iggy, if you're a conservative - and if you can't support the leader it's best you join them. I've no doubt the Liberal supporters will gladly rise to your bait but this forum is usually about Liberal policy and not partisanship. I don't wish to pretwend to be threadcop, I'm just fascinated by how often conservatives use this forum to stir the pot while Liberals don't do the same in theirs. Maybe we just respect the intent of the subforums more. ;)


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 10:43 am
 


Firecat wrote:
If you are to emulate the sore losers who supported Martin and systematiccaly worked to undermine Chretien you might well recall that Chretien won too, over and over and over - and Martin didn't. If a politician can be judged by his supporters, this always4iggy persona demonstrates Dion was the right choice.
If you cannot be comfortable with the duly elected leader the correct course of action for you is to join another party.Buh-bye.
Three mistakes in your thinking:

a. Chretien won, with the sponsorship scandal. Martin took the rap for it.

b. Voters now carefully check ethics. The Dion Kennedy pay back is doubtful ethically.

c. If a politician can be judged by his supporters, remember that Dion had only fourth place in terms of support. Also remember that he had to borrow half a million dollars because his supporters did NOT support him. Iggy won with our money!

d. Borrowings are to evade the contribution limits which keep out rich from taking control. Any leader who wins in this way, or by factions, is dishonest ab initio. So we should not leave the party but expose the roots of evasion of ethical fair play.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 10:43 am
 


Hey lily, how come you don't fly the Liberal flag by your name? :)
Once you join the Liberal group you get to use the Jacuzzi.


Last edited by Firecat on Wed Dec 13, 2006 10:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 10:45 am
 


Firecat wrote:
This is the forum for Liberal supporters. I think your post belongs in the General thread, always4iggy, if you're a conservative - and if you can't support the leader it's best you join them.
Well you are a bit confused, if you think that.

What, according to you, is the difference between Liberal and Conservative?

More later, have to rush now.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 10:46 am
 


Hvorden stór det til?


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