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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2006 7:44 am
 


With every runner dropping out early supporting Bob it is not good news for the liberals. No matter what happens Rae will have a done more damage to the liberals that any adscam ever would. Just when they were trying to consolidate and reorganize after a loss by trying to bury the past Rae reminds us all of it and the NDP. This double headed hydra is all that the people will see before they drop off and tune out the liberals all together. Sweeping away the past is also why I think Dion is also a bad choice even though he would be more than capable at least better than Volpe.

All the liberals that would have been good choices chose not to run. If that was intention or just the aftermath from the bitterness of the rivalry that precipitated from the Chrétien-Martin legacy it did provide an opportunity for the liberals that Rae and Dion squandered. Who ever wins will inherit a sinking ship with no chance of winning the next election and will only have a limited window of time to make the liberal party into a feasible party of opposition in the foreseeable future. A cumbersome job only a ideologue would want. So who best to steward? Dion is a good match vs Harper but I would like to see Kennedy take it. Iggy is a bad choice if only because so many from the blue side think he is a best of a bad lot. Fry doesn't stand a chance and is only in to shape policy, perhaps to counter Rae. Bryson is the only dark horse that has the chance Trudeau had, perhaps he will run with it.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2006 7:55 am
 


Maggiemygosh wrote:
Just wait until Sheila Fraser Canada's Auditor General completes her audits on The Federal Department of Indian and North Affairs. The results will make the adscam look like kindergardem.

The Fiberals are going to have to repay the $60+ million dollars they owe to the taxpayers from the Adscam criminal event and when the Audit is in from DIAND the number of dollars owed will be at least a Billion.

Folks the Fiberals are corrupt and crooked. They lie, they cheat, they control the media so the truth doesn't get out and the have ripped us taxpayers off big time.

Once the Federal charges are laid against the majority of those crooks and the amount of money they have to repay there will no longer be a Fiberal, Lieberal or Liberal sect left in this country which is a good thing. The NDP will be long gone as well.

So it seems like the The Tories will be in power for a while to come and that is good and the opposition party will be The Green PArty who will not allow lefty's to join them.


gee, all of that and they are still far better then any conservative. :lol:


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2006 7:58 am
 


Firecat wrote:
hwacker wrote:
Nope looks like it, Just high 5's for everybody.


I started the thread and I'm a bit disappointed that I can't read objective comment on the Liberal party from a conservative standpoint; unfortunately the first "bunch of crazies" comment made it clear an objective discussion would not take place if conservatives were to participate in this sub-forum.

This sub-forum and their equivalents for the other parties can clearly only function as a "party members conference." Members of other parties really should not participate as being counter productive and only disruptive.

It is the grass-roots Liberals would wish to discuss issues in this sub-forum and hear differing opinions rooted in common values. It is this kind of process the Liberals must embark upon, just as Stephen Harper did to rebuild the Conservative Party support.

While I consider it worth-while to hear and remain open to viewpoints from a different position on the political spectrum, we get to hear those views and criticisms in the general political foums.

It may be that some Liberals may hold common views with conservatives on certain issues. Those views can and will be debated and perhaps influence the party, but in a more productive way with a like-minded Liberal championning them in party policy discussions.


I tried that about a year ago. None of the cons wanted any discussion whatsoever. All they wanted to do was scream insults at the Liberals and anyone who supported them.

If you want a very good political discussion without the flame then engage Patrick Ross. He's probably the most politically knowlegeable and isn't tied down along party lines.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2006 12:25 pm
 


Scape wrote:
With every runner dropping out early supporting Bob it is not good news for the liberals. No matter what happens Rae will have a done more damage to the liberals that any adscam ever would. Just when they were trying to consolidate and reorganize after a loss by trying to bury the past Rae reminds us all of it and the NDP. This double headed hydra is all that the people will see before they drop off and tune out the liberals all together. Sweeping away the past is also why I think Dion is also a bad choice even though he would be more than capable at least better than Volpe.

All the liberals that would have been good choices chose not to run. If that was intention or just the aftermath from the bitterness of the rivalry that precipitated from the Chrétien-Martin legacy it did provide an opportunity for the liberals that Rae and Dion squandered. Who ever wins will inherit a sinking ship with no chance of winning the next election and will only have a limited window of time to make the liberal party into a feasible party of opposition in the foreseeable future. A cumbersome job only a ideologue would want. So who best to steward? Dion is a good match vs Harper but I would like to see Kennedy take it. Iggy is a bad choice if only because so many from the blue side think he is a best of a bad lot. Fry doesn't stand a chance and is only in to shape policy, perhaps to counter Rae. Bryson is the only dark horse that has the chance Trudeau had, perhaps he will run with it.


Rae's an NDP'er with a red coat on.

I'd personally love to see him win, it would be a clean sweep for the Conservatives in Ontario minus a few NDP seats.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2006 12:40 pm
 


I don't support the Liberals, the Cons or the NDP. I judge and vote on issues, and to be frank the Moderate Left seems identical to the Moderate Right to me. It's the extremist of the Left and Right that scare me, they are so rabbit about politics they froath at the mouth. It's ugly to see and read.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2006 12:54 pm
 


Scrappy wrote:
I don't support the Liberals, the Cons or the NDP. I judge and vote on issues, and to be frank the Moderate Left seems identical to the Moderate Right to me. It's the extremist of the Left and Right that scare me, they are so rabbit about politics they froath at the mouth. It's ugly to see and read.


It is regrettably true that the moderate left and the moderate right have become virtually indistinguishable but the policies in the public eye have tended to be focussed on areas not dependent entirely upon fundamental values.

We have seen, for instance, no assault on social programs, or any attention paid to social matters, our government being focussed on our foreign involvement.

The issue of same-sex marriage has not yet been raised and party differences will begin to come into sharp relief there.

It is well worth considering that similarity though as the party rebuilds under a new leader.

The Liberal Party must be a definable, distinct entity and surely will become more clearly so.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2006 2:46 pm
 


Firecat wrote: The Liberal Party must be a definable, distinct entity and surely will become more clearly so.

How do you see the Liberal Party going about making these changes? A strong leader would be a start but I just don't see those who are running as strong/fresh leadership, could I be wrong? Your post was bang on bye the way. Refreshing to read.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2006 2:48 pm
 


The Liberal Party cannot have a defining identity. Their party is one founded o the ideals of taking the middle road. They have recently split from that view, but issues such as gay marriage and Israel's right to exist will highlight the splits within the Liberal Party, both on the sides of centre right, and centre left.

Pertaining to same sex marriage, there are many communities that remain Liberal, but do not support such measures as gay marriage. MPs such as Derek Lee (Scarborough-Rouge River), Brenda Chamberlain (Guelph), Joe Comuzzi (Thunder Bay-Superior North), and Gerry Byrne (Humber-St Barbe-Baie Verte). The reason I listed these give MPs is because they all represent Liberal strongholds that are absolutely against the same sex marriage motion. Scarborough, as well as several other small cities around or inside Toronto, are heavily against same sex marriage. Ethnicity has much to do with this - Indian and other Middle Eastern communities are very much against this. Ms Chamberlain represents a rural riding, which has such strong social conservatism that if she, or other Liberal MPs, espoused a socially liberal view, they would promptly lose the next election. Northern Ontario also reflects this attitute, as seen by every Northern Ontario Liberal MP being against SSM. I listed Gerry Byrne because Atlantic Canada is one of the most socially conservative areas in Canada. As you can see, same sex marriage is a large wedge issue within the Liberal Party of Canada.

In terms of Israel's right to exist, Western Montreal, a heavily Jewish area, has MPs that all support Israel in its right to exist - high profile MPs such as Irwin Cotler and Francis Scarpaleggia. Winnipeg MPs are also facing such a problem - Anita Neville and Raymond Simard being prime examples.

The urbanite Liberalism being espoused by the Liberal Party of Canada today is not going to play well in many of the strongholds mentioned above. Look for these areas to soon come into play. Indeed, many, such as rural Ontario, and the Atlantic, already have. It will be used as a wedge issue to divide the Liberal Party, not on a Jean Chretien versus Paul Martin basis, but rather on a left wing, right wing basis.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2006 3:13 pm
 


Thanks for the info TheGup, I'm a newbie to politics and I'm still trying to get my head around Left versus Right and what that means. Your post helped, but now I'm more confused is the Liberal-Liberals going to far to the left or are the Not-Liberal Liberals going to far to the right?

I think I need a little lye down now.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2006 3:35 pm
 


OnTheIce wrote:
Rae's an NDP'er with a red coat on.

I'd personally love to see him win, it would be a clean sweep for the Conservatives in Ontario minus a few NDP seats.


I'm not so sure about that. He could actually consolidate the NDP/Liberal vote, especially now with where Layton has been taking the NDP.

Ontario voters did themselves a disservice back then, it wasn't really the NDP's fault but the voters' fault and it would not have been so bad if Ontario wasn't already headed into a recession at the time. Bob Rae and his government was starting to roll at the end of their term but by then it was too late.

What did Ontario voters expect when they elected a party that didn't think they would ever win and had absolutely no experience running a province or working together as a government?


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2006 3:40 pm
 


Scrappy wrote:
Thanks for the info TheGup, I'm a newbie to politics and I'm still trying to get my head around Left versus Right and what that means. Your post helped, but now I'm more confused is the Liberal-Liberals going to far to the left or are the Not-Liberal Liberals going to far to the right?

I think I need a little lye down now.


The Liberal Party is basically a centrist party. This means that both leftists and rightists are attracted to it, though. Urban liberalism is basically leftist - this is mainly seen in ridings like Davenport, Vancouver-Kingsway, and LaSalle-Emard. There are also conservative Liberals, though. They are the Liberals I have mentioned before. This chart of how MPs are going to vote may help you:
Wikipedia - Same Sex Marriage, Where MPs stand


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2006 7:40 pm
 


Ripcat wrote:
OnTheIce wrote:
Rae's an NDP'er with a red coat on.

I'd personally love to see him win, it would be a clean sweep for the Conservatives in Ontario minus a few NDP seats.


I'm not so sure about that. He could actually consolidate the NDP/Liberal vote, especially now with where Layton has been taking the NDP.

Ontario voters did themselves a disservice back then, it wasn't really the NDP's fault but the voters' fault and it would not have been so bad if Ontario wasn't already headed into a recession at the time. Bob Rae and his government was starting to roll at the end of their term but by then it was too late.

What did Ontario voters expect when they elected a party that didn't think they would ever win and had absolutely no experience running a province or working together as a government?


True, the NDP were starting to come around during the Rae dayz, but people don't remember that and will punish the Liberals if he gets in.

The name "Bob Rae" is enough to make most Ontarians cringe.

Smart man. Retarded politician.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2006 6:11 am
 


With Rae's popularity putting him a close second at this point in delegate selection, we must now consider the upside that the remaining candidates offer without worrying excessively about baggage.

An election is a marketing campaign and all candidates will bring baggage. We will have to sell our leader as well as our policies. Whomever we choose, I will gladly support him and the party.

That said, I still like Gerard Kennedy.

I don't predict a Liberal government frankly. Until social issues come onto the public radar the country is liking Harper's government.

Once social programmes start being cut, that will reawaken Liberal support in voters.

Did I mention I'd like Gerard Kennedy to be the "dark-horse" winner?

ROTFL






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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2006 8:04 pm
 


The delegate selection weekend shows Ignatieff has the broadest support countrywide. Kennedy has no support in Quebec and Rae hasn't got Ontario.


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