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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:36 am
 


Coach85 wrote:
What else do we need to do as a Nation before we can expect FN's people to take responsibility for themselves?
Give them more money.
or
Publicly identify the names and heirs of all the beneficiaries of the native genocide.

That is the choice.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:39 am
 


CharlesAnthony wrote:
Coach85 wrote:
What else do we need to do as a Nation before we can expect FN's people to take responsibility for themselves?
Give them more money.
or
Publicly identify the names and heirs of all the beneficiaries of the native genocide.

That is the choice.


What a joke.

Why can't Native people just take some personal responsibility for their own actions?

Do I get to place blame for my actions in perpetuity because my ancestors were slaves?


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:41 am
 


Thanos wrote:
Zipperfish wrote:
Coach85 wrote:
I'm sick of you and the Natives playing this card. every. single. time.

Yes, there is bad past with our Country and the Native community. That's long over.

It's not the fault of the Whites that Natives make up the majority of certain prison populations. It's their fault.

It's not the fault of the Whites that there's rampant alcoholism and abuse on reserves. It's their fault.

It's not the fault of Whites that Natives opt to live in 3rd World conditions. It's their fault.

It's time for the Native community to take ownership of the problems that plague their people and stop blaming it on whitey.

Time to move on and take some responsibility.


Well, isn't that convenient. Time for the natives take responsibility, but no responsibility for Canada for everything that's happened up until now because "that's long over."

It doesn't work that way, I'm afraid. A nation doesn't just get to give itself a pass to prior actions it took, any more than a person does. And the courts have been very clear on this issue--there are aboriginal rights and title, and those people do have rights and title to land in Canada. And the government has been very clear that the practice of forcibly removing children from their homes was wrong and caused great harm.

So, no, you don't just get to wash your hands of it all, sorry.


None of this has anything to do with anything we know of that was presented as evidence or argument in the Stanley trial. Is your contention that Boushie and his friends had a right to terrorize local farmers because of what happened in the residential schools or from the government seizing children back in the 1960's? If this is your claim, that Natives are literally exempt from the law, then please clearly say so.

R=UP


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:42 am
 


What about the majority of natives whose ancestry is part European? Do they have to pay up too, based on their DNA?


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:43 am
 


Coach85 wrote:
Zipperfish wrote:

Well, isn't that convenient. Time for the natives take responsibility, but no responsibility for Canada for everything that's happened up until now because "that's long over."

It doesn't work that way, I'm afraid. A nation doesn't just get to give itself a pass to prior actions it took, any more than a person does. And the courts have been very clear on this issue--there are aboriginal rights and title, and those people do have rights and title to land in Canada. And the government has been very clear that the practice of forcibly removing children from their homes was wrong and caused great harm.

So, no, you don't just get to wash your hands of it all, sorry.


Sorry, who's taken a pass?

What else is left to do? How many times do we have to apologize for the past?

None of these types of issues have any effect on the types of young men coming out of these reserves.

How many decades or centuries will pass on before the FN's decide to take some responsibility for themselves?

R=UP


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:45 am
 


Coach85 wrote:
JaredMilne wrote:
Coach85 wrote:
I'm sick of you and the Natives playing this card. every. single. time.

Yes, there is bad past with our Country and the Native community. That's long over.

It's not the fault of the Whites that Natives make up the majority of certain prison populations. It's their fault.

It's not the fault of the Whites that there's rampant alcoholism and abuse on reserves. It's their fault.

It's not the fault of Whites that Natives opt to live in 3rd World conditions. It's their fault.

It's time for the Native community to take ownership of the problems that plague their people and stop blaming it on whitey.

Time to move on and take some responsibility.


...Wow.

Have you ever even tried to see the Indigenous point of view, or seen what they've said and written? Let me give you the Cole's Notes version as I understand it from what I've seen and read:

You're living in a territory that's tied deeply into your identity. The land is your livelihood, sense of self, and religious faith all at once. Then, some new people come in. Nothing wrong with that-in most cases, you sign an agreement with them to share the land for mutual benefit. They promise you'll be able to continue those aspects of your life that are a key part of your identity-that define who you are-and that you'll get a good education to cope with the coming changes.

Then things start to change. The new arrivals start doing things that disrupt your ability to live with the land-which, again, is your religious faith and sense of self all at once, along with your livelihood. Sometimes you're attacked when you try to use parts of the land you thought you could. Sometimes you're attacked for your faith, even after you convert to the new arrivals' Christianity. The schools you are promised are undefunded shitholes where your kids do more gruntwork than actual studying, when they aren't shivering in unheated, overcrowded conditions or being physically and sexually abused. You're abused for decades, told that everything that makes you who you are is trash. You protest peacefully at this, and resort to violence only when you feel your back is against the wall. Then when violence breaks out, you're scapegoated for it, even though some rednecks south of the border can do the exact same thing and be hailed as heroes for it.

The communities where you're made to live are a small portion of what you're promised. You're forcibly relocated at bureaucrats' whims, you get little practical education, parts of your community can be arbitrarily removed, you can be forcibly dragged off to those hellhole schools, bureaucrats try to control your life in ways that Communists would envy, even to the point of trying to dictate who you marry. Then, when often you're so screwed up because of everything you had to go through, your kids get seized, taken away from their own identities and sense of who they are too.

Your communities are chronically underfunded, even as the new arrivals force you to draft all kinds of reports and continue to oversee your community's activities, putting you under 3rd party management, while your leaders have less power than municipal councils and often not a lot of capacity to build them. The new arrivals' own human rights commissions even show that you and your kin are being underfunded, but the new arrivals' government ignores this.

You're told that you're lazy and inefficient, and that you should go to the city to get a job. When you do, you're often stereotyped as a lazy drunk, followed in stores because you're suspected of being a thief, and subject to physical and sexual violence, sometimes even from the police who are supposed to protect you. You're constantly told that your identity and your heritage are trash, and that you should be ashamed of who you are.

Your small communities are an implicit recognition of your Treaty rights, rights that are integral to who you are. Asking you to abandon them is like asking you to peel off your own skin.

But apparently everything's your fault and you're the only one who needs to change.


Do they not have to accept any responsibility for their actions?

Does the 22-year-old kid who runs and kills a local store owner get to claim he did it because he was upset about land claims?

At what point do FN people have to take 100% responsibility for themselves?

Lastly, how exactly does your post relate to a bunch of punk kids that could care less about the history of their culture and are far more interested in robbing people and getting hammered daily?

None of this applies to the host of young people in the SUV during this tragic event.

R=UP


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:46 am
 


lawyers: +1
tax-payers: 0
Stanley: -1




Coach85 wrote:
Why can't Native people just take some personal responsibility for their own actions?
What do you want them to do?
The natives know the names and heirs of the beneficiaries of native genocide. Are you willing to let the non-Native public know the rest of the story?


Coach85 wrote:
Do I get to place blame for my actions in perpetuity because my ancestors were slaves?
If you can identify the names and heirs of the slave-masters, then yes, you can!
Try to find a tax-paying public willing to fund your campaign for justice.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:48 am
 


BRAH wrote:
Thanos wrote:
BRAH wrote:
Maybe the parents need to take some responsibility.


Going by Shep's horror stories that is something that will never happen.

Therein lies the problem because it's easier to play the race card then for the parents to own the fact they had a responsibility and failed which tragically cost their son his life.

R=UP


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:54 am
 


DrCaleb wrote:
Not that I agree 100% with Coach, but I take responsibility for anything I've done. I have never oppressed anyone, I have tried hard to never think differently or treat anyone differently just because they didn't look like me or dress like me or anything else, like me.

When I make mistakes, I own up to them. What I don't do is feel bad for mistakes other people have made, especially if it's done by the Government in which I have no control and before I walked this earth.

I'm all about treating Inishenabe the way they want to be treated. I'm all about 'reconciliation'. But it works both ways. I cannot be blamed for things I did not do and will not apologize for, and I will not hold anyone to account for things they didn't do.

But like an article I quoted a couple pages back said - It's not a race thing, it's a crime thing. The First Nations cannot cry that Gerald Stanley did not face justice, while people who ran away from his farm that day are still wanted in connection with that event. We cannot convict in the media a man who only defended his family and property when the police couldn't, and has been found not guilty in a court of law.

Police are not in the business of protecting anyone or anything. They investigate crime only. It's up to everyone to prevent crime, and as the MMIWG inquiry closes in on the obvious conclusion we all see coming, First Nations are not doing a very good job of keeping the peace and dispensing with 'Justice'.

Just ask Shep the things he sees every day. Is the reserve he lives on special, or completely like many other reserves? They need to own up to the fact that they are really bad at the things they are accusing Canada of, and by association, all of us.


No one's saying anything about you personally. At least I'm not. You always stuck me as a decent bloke. We are talking about Canada. And Canada has done some things they bear responsibility for. So you bear personal responsibility only to the point that you consider yourself Canadian, I would say. Do you accept that portion of your responsibility for taking, by force, a daughter from her mother and sending her away to be a child sex slave for a white family in the US? Because that is what happened to a woman in my family. And Canada did that. And she still lives with that. And Canada is just filled with people telling her to quit whining and take responsibility for her actions. Maybe if your people would just stop drinking and committing crime they wouldn't be in jail. So you got taken away from your family? We meant well. Quit whining. Move on.

Take responsibility. Did Gerald Stanley? No. He said the gun just went off. There's some taking responsibility for you. Did those Saskatchewan cops driving natives out of town to freeze to death take responsibility? Well I guess. A couple lost their jobs. One cop did eight months.


Last edited by Zipperfish on Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:56 am
 


housewife wrote:
Coach85 wrote:
housewife wrote:

Oh ffs everyone uses that as a defense no matter race or gender. You may be sick of the race card I’m sick of people tarring every native with what you think you know about all.


Let me get this straight...you're sick of Natives being tarred yet you've got no problem tarring everyone else saying they play the race card too?

What Natives have told us is that these young men were just out for a drive with friends and nobody, not his family or community, is taking responsibility for his actions. All of the blame lies with the man he and his friends tried to rob while armed, drunk and with 3 tires on their vehicle.

Oh, and the entire jury is racist.

There is not a single group in this Country that uses their race and culture to excuse their actions quite like our First Nations.


For clarity. The poor pitiful me defense has been used more and more in the courts regardless of race or gender. No where did I say that this pertains to this case.

I have already said I don’t believe that they were just driving around. Nor did I say anything about his family or reserve other than not all reserves are corrupt. Sure as hell didn’t say it was all anyone’s fault.

As to the jury I haven’t said anything. Though if I were them I would be pissed with the shit storm the pm has created and would be worried about their pictures being on line. They hear the evidence not all of which is not out in the public and gave a verdict with the guidelines they had.

Edit for clarity :roll:


Good comment, housewife.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:57 am
 


Zipperfish wrote:
No one's saying anything about you. We are talking about Canada. And Canada has done some things they bear responsibility for.
Who is Canada??

Who did what? and when?


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:00 am
 


DrCaleb wrote:
Zipperfish wrote:
You expect them to take responsibility yet you take none yourself. That's all "long over" you say. "I already said I'm sorry" you say. That's not taking responsibility, that's being a petulant child.


Not that I agree 100% with Coach, but I take responsibility for anything I've done. I have never oppressed anyone, I have tried hard to never think differently or treat anyone differently just because they didn't look like me or dress like me or anything else, like me.

When I make mistakes, I own up to them. What I don't do is feel bad for mistakes other people have made, especially if it's done by the Government in which I have no control and before I walked this earth.

I'm all about treating Inishenabe the way they want to be treated. I'm all about 'reconciliation'. But it works both ways. I cannot be blamed for things I did not do and will not apologize for, and I will not hold anyone to account for things they didn't do.

But like an article I quoted a couple pages back said - It's not a race thing, it's a crime thing. The First Nations cannot cry that Gerald Stanley did not face justice, while people who ran away from his farm that day are still wanted in connection with that event. We cannot convict in the media a man who only defended his family and property when the police couldn't, and has been found not guilty in a court of law.

Police are not in the business of protecting anyone or anything. They investigate crime only. It's up to everyone to prevent crime, and as the MMIWG inquiry closes in on the obvious conclusion we all see coming, First Nations are not doing a very good job of keeping the peace and dispensing with 'Justice'.

Just ask Shep the things he sees every day. Is the reserve he lives on special, or completely like many other reserves? They need to own up to the fact that they are really bad at the things they are accusing Canada of, and by association, all of us.


Good post, Dr Caleb.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:12 am
 


I'm sorry, but when I was a teenager, starlight tours was a tactic the RCMP used on white kids too. I lived in a community that was, at the time, almost entirely Caucasian. We usually didn't tell our parents because we knew we'd be in serious shit with them for behaving poorly. I did it at least twice, even when given a choice between phoning my dad or going for a walk. The cops knew me because my dad worked for Corrections and several were family friends(or their kids were my friends).... they kept their promise. None of them ratted me out....even though they hinted at it a few times when they were over at our home as company.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:15 am
 


Coach85 wrote:
Zipperfish wrote:
You


How have you taken responsibility with respect to our First Nations people?




He's done nothing.

He whines that he is living on 'occupied native land',

yet refuses to sign his house over to the Natives as a sign of reconciliation.

The worst level of hypocrisy. :lol:


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:26 am
 


Right now there are scattered protests going on demanding changes to our legal system. We need to see all Canadians join in these protests, especially those who support ending shortened sentences recommended by Gladue Reports, enforcing property rights, enforcing probation conditions, enforcing child support and a whole slough of other problems we have with our current judicial system. One nation, one law, one people(yes dealing with racial issues is also key).


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