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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:27 am
 


Zipperfish wrote:
No one's saying anything about you. We are talking about Canada. And Canada has done some things they bear responsibility for. So you bear personal responsibility only to the point that you consider yourself Canadian, I would say.


But, right there! You are saying it's my responsibility! I am 'Canada', you are 'Canada', we are 'Canada'. Do we have any say, and therefore any responsibility for things we did not control or even know about? Has 'Canada' apologized for the terrible things it did in our name? It has.

Zipperfish wrote:
Do you accept that portion of your responsibility for taking, by force, a daughter from her mother and sending her away to be a child sex slave for a white family in the US? Because that is what happened to a woman in my family. And Canada did that. And she still lives with that. And Canada is just filled with people telling her to quit whining and take responsibility for her actions.


I will take full responsibility for any actions I made toward this lady. Which, is none, since this is the first I heard about it. I have sympathy for her, I have empathy for her, I hope she finds justice for the things done to her.

But, I did not do them. If I had know about them, perhaps I could have changed that situation. But after the fact, there is little I can do that I'm not currently doing. And no one is telling her it's her fault and to 'quit whining'. Not a single decent person would say that.

What happened to her was not the result of her actions, but Colton Boushie bears some responsibility for his. So does his family. The two cases are not similar.

I hope she can overcome her trauma, because that's when healing starts. That's what most of us are trying to do, heal and move on. But no one can move on when it's the mistakes of the past that people dwell on.

Zipperfish wrote:
Maybe if your people would just stop drinking and committing crime they wouldn't be in jail. So you got taken away from your family? We meant well. Quit whining. Move on.


Again, no one is saying that either. You need to slow down and read.

Is alcohol a factor in Native rates of crime? I'm willing to bet. So is poverty, and the fact many have to put themselves in bad situations in order to survive. But so is apathy, and tribal elders that put people in those situations.

All of it needs to come out, and then we can deal with it as best we can.

Zipperfish wrote:
Take responsibility. Did Gerald Stanley? No. He said the gun just went off. There's some taking responsibility for you.


He testified in court, as to his role in the event. The police recovered a Russian made Toarev from his property. Not exactly a reliable weapon. It's entirely reasonable to assume a 'hang fire' killed Colton Boushie, and the Crown didn't prove otherwise.

Assuming Gerald Stanley hasn't taken responsibility implies he was lying on the stand. Be careful you aren't using the same bias for him you claim others are showing. :idea:

Zipperfish wrote:
Did those Saskatchewan cops driving natives out of town to freeze to death take responsibility? Well I guess. A couple lost their jobs. One cop did eight months.


Exactly. Crimes were reported, investigated and convictions followed. That's how 'justice' works.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:29 am
 


ShepherdsDog wrote:
Right now there are scattered protests going on demanding changes to our legal system.
They should be ignored.



ShepherdsDog wrote:
We need to see all Canadians join in these protests,
Speak for yourself. Who is we??????????????


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:35 am
 


Quote:
Is alcohol a factor in Native rates of crime? I'm willing to bet. So is poverty,

There is also the issue that these kids had family connections to the powers that be on their bannock republics. Many of them are immune to prosecution because those they target live in fear of retaliation from their kin. No housing for you....No funding for school for you. it happens all the time on many reserves, and Red Pheasant is no different if you check the facts.

These wastes of skin likely got away with the sort of shit they pulled on the Stanley family and when they slid into the real world, they met with real consequences for their behaviour, not someone who was intimidated by who their family was.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:42 am
 


Zipperfish wrote:
Thanos wrote:

None of this has anything to do with anything we know of that was presented as evidence or argument in the Stanley trial. Is your contention that Boushie and his friends had a right to terrorize local farmers because of what happened in the residential schools or from the government seizing children back in the 1960's? If this is your claim, that Natives are literally exempt from the law, then please clearly say so.


They are not exempt from the law. If they were they wouldn't be crowding all the prisons, would they? This is the state of ridiculousness we get to--where we have the objective fact that natives are vastly overrepresented in the prisons, coinciding with the notion that natives get away with whatever they want.


On the surface that's what Trudeau and his ministers appear to want to move towards. And over-representation only happens as a result of a demographic being the ones proven statistically and anecdotally to be committing more crimes than any of the others.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:00 pm
 


CharlesAnthony wrote:



Coach85 wrote:
Why can't Native people just take some personal responsibility for their own actions?
What do you want them to do?
The natives know the names and heirs of the beneficiaries of native genocide. Are you willing to let the non-Native public know the rest of the story?


I want them own up to their actions when they screw up and stop placing the blame for their crimes on white people.


Coach85 wrote:
Do I get to place blame for my actions in perpetuity because my ancestors were slaves?
If you can identify the names and heirs of the slave-masters, then yes, you can!
Try to find a tax-paying public willing to fund your campaign for justice.[/quote]

I'm not talking about justice. This is about blame and responsibility.

If I murder a family member of yours, can I place blame on the people that kept my ancestors as slaves and that would be acceptable to you?

If a Jewish man kills someone in your family or robs them at gunpoint, can he refer back to his ancestors killed in the Hollocaust as a reason for his actions?


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:09 pm
 


Coach85 wrote:
I want them own up to their actions when they screw up and stop placing the blame for their crimes on white people.
OK. What if they do not comply?

Now what?


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:53 pm
 


After Boushie case, are we headed for Gladue 2.0?


Quote:
In the spring of 2016, when the sexual assault trial of former CBC host Jian Ghomeshi failed to produce the verdict the Trudeau government wanted, the government decided to change the law to make it even harder for men to defend themselves against rape allegations.

Canada at the time already had one of the toughest “rape shields” in the world – a set of laws and judicial precedents that made it difficult to raise a woman’s past sexual behaviour in court, thereby making it harder for a defendant to establish the alleged victim had given consent.

I wouldn’t trust Ghomeshi around my wife or daughter, but that’s not the point.

Because his defence lawyers had used his accusers’ emails and texts to expose serious inconsistencies between the accusers’ post-attack behaviour towards Ghomeshi and the claims they were making to police and prosecutors, the Trudeau Liberals changed Canadian law to make it very difficult to introduce an alleged victim’s electronic communications “of a sexual nature” or “for a sexual purpose.” This made it even harder than it had been for an accused to establish he had reasonable grounds to believe the alleged victim had consented.

The underlying message of the amendments was: Due process and reasonable doubt are unimportant next to social justice for women. Therefore, it’s justifiable to stack the deck to make sure that when men are accused, they are found guilty.


Now in the wake of the Gerald Stanley verdict in Saskatchewan, are we headed for a similar Liberal deck-stacking against those accused of crimes against Indigenous people?

Since Stanley’s acquittal in the tragic shooting death of a young Cree man named Colten Boushie, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau can’t stop talking and tweeting about how Indigenous Canadians deserve better from our justice system.

Trudeau insists he is not commenting specifically about the Stanley case, but he has met with Boushie’s family and promised them reforms. That sounds like a political threat for the justice system: Give us the verdicts we want or we’ll change the law so cases must come to the conclusions we want.

So, then, are we headed for Gladue 2.0?

Ever since a 1999 Supreme Court decision known as R v Gladue, judges sentencing convicted Indigenous criminals are required to take the defendant’s Indigenous heritage into account – not just his or her specific life events, but the general experience of Indigenous people in Canada.

Indigenous convicts are to receive as little prison time as possible. And, whenever possible, they are to be sentenced to alternatives, such as healing lodges.

Are we now going to see this same principle extended beyond the sentencing of Indigenous criminals to the prosecution of non-Indigenous people accused of committing crimes against Indigenous Canadians? Are non-Indigenous Canadians now to be denied a full defence in court – the way men accused of sexual assault are?

Let’s be very clear about one thing: The biggest danger to young Indigenous men is other young Indigenous men, not middle-aged Saskatchewan farmers.

Indigenous people are more than three times as likely as non-Indigenous people to be victims of violent crime. However, in at least 70% of those cases (and possibly more), their attackers are other Indigenous people.

And as for the claim that the Stanley jury was biased because it contained no Indigenous jurors, so, therefore, the Criminal Code should be amended to eliminate the defence’s right to automatically exclude jurors, remember that can cut both ways.

Just as defence lawyers can use peremptory rules to exclude jurors they believe might be sympathetic to victims – such as Indigenous jurors may have been in this case – so too can prosecutors and defence lawyers use the rules to keep out bigots and hardline jurors who might be biased the other way when the defendant is Indigenous.


http://torontosun.com/opinion/columnist ... gladue-2-0


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:08 pm
 


CharlesAnthony wrote:
Coach85 wrote:
I want them own up to their actions when they screw up and stop placing the blame for their crimes on white people.
OK. What if they do not comply?

Now what?


Then they'll continue down the same path.

If they don't, the status quo continues and their communities and people remain in peril.

When you don't take any responsibility for your own actions or those within your family or community, you end up in a place our FN's are now; placing all the blame on the white man.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:40 pm
 


DrCaleb wrote:

But, right there! You are saying it's my responsibility! I am 'Canada', you are 'Canada', we are 'Canada'. Do we have any say, and therefore any responsibility for things we did not control or even know about? Has 'Canada' apologized for the terrible things it did in our name? It has.


Well there you go. That's a great way to empty out those Saskatchewan jails of all those Indians. "Are you sorry?" "Yup." "Right, off you go then!"


Quote:
I will take full responsibility for any actions I made toward this lady. Which, is none, since this is the first I heard about it. I have sympathy for her, I have empathy for her, I hope she finds justice for the things done to her.


Justice? You said, "Has Canada apologized for the terrible things it did in our name? It has." I'm sorry to say that I don't think your idea of justice matches that of many First Nations.


Quote:
But, I did not do them. If I had know about them, perhaps I could have changed that situation. But after the fact, there is little I can do that I'm not currently doing.


Canada has a race problem now--it is not "after the fact." By almost every single indicator, aboriginals in Canada are worse off than black Americans.

Quote:
What happened to her was not the result of her actions, but Colton Boushie bears some responsibility for his. So does his family. The two cases are not similar.


It's telling that you reject the notion of collective responsibility as a citizen of Canada, but think it is fine applied to Boushie's family.
Quote:
I hope she can overcome her trauma, because that's when healing starts. That's what most of us are trying to do, heal and move on. But no one can move on when it's the mistakes of the past that people dwell on.


So it is not Canada's fault. Canada has apologized. It's her fault for her failure to "move on." I don't accept that. If I am going to cheer for Canadians in the Olympics, then I am going to accept responsibility for our past and do what I can to make it better. To me, that is responsibility.

Zip wrote:
Maybe if your people would just stop drinking and committing crime they wouldn't be in jail. So you got taken away from your family? We meant well. Quit whining. Move on


Dr.C wrote:
Again, no one is saying that either. You need to slow down and read.



Quote:
Well zippy have your people stop doing the crime and they won't be in jail. Stop stabbing someone for walking down the street with a case of beer.


Quote:
Already is, when the Indians are whining

Quote:
Maybe if these assholes raised their kids to respect other people and their property they wouldn't have to worry about that happening.


I don't think I'm the one who needs to slow down and read.


Quote:
Is alcohol a factor in Native rates of crime? I'm willing to bet. So is poverty, and the fact many have to put themselves in bad situations in order to survive. But so is apathy, and tribal elders that put people in those situations.


And maybe, just maybe, the acts of Canada too. Like the 60s Scoop and the residential school system and the documented systemic racism I note that one was rather conveniently left out.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:50 pm
 


Zip I don't disagree that the Government should take responsibility for what has occurred in the past. How would they go about making it right, in your view?


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:53 pm
 


Tricks wrote:
Zip I don't disagree that the Government should take responsibility for what has occurred in the past. How would they go about making it right, in your view?



The same answer, as always.



MO' FUCKING MONEY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:58 pm
 


Thanos wrote:
On the surface that's what Trudeau and his ministers appear to want to move towards. And over-representation only happens as a result of a demographic being the ones proven statistically and anecdotally to be committing more crimes than any of the others.


It's almost as if telling them to take some personal responsibility isn't working. :lol:


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:07 pm
 


Zipperfish wrote:
Thanos wrote:
On the surface that's what Trudeau and his ministers appear to want to move towards. And over-representation only happens as a result of a demographic being the ones proven statistically and anecdotally to be committing more crimes than any of the others.


It's almost as if telling them to take some personal responsibility isn't working. :lol:


I'm not going to waste time talking about solutions because I doubt there is one. And, no offense to you personally, perpetual guilt for every generation of white Canadians that has ever lived or will ever live isn't something I'm going to bother with either. The endless billions that have been spent on Natives, as well as the endless billions that will continue to be spent, by the various governments show that it isn't racism that's at the heart of these problems. It's something pathological going on, but it has no cure if "racism" is both the starting point and the end point of any discussion of what to do to end these problems.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:12 pm
 


Tricks wrote:
Zip I don't disagree that the Government should take responsibility for what has occurred in the past. How would they go about making it right, in your view?


I can't speak for Saskatchewan, but in BC--where the gov't and courts are on record that the residents here are on unceded land (there were very few treaties in BC, none in the Lower Mainland around Vancouver).


So I work on developing agreements with local First Nations on a shared governance models. Not just notification, not just consultation, but actual shared governance. You want to build a grain terminal? Well that's, say, Musqueam traditional territory. You need your approvals from the province and the feds, maybe a municipality or regional district. But you also need approval from the Musqueam. Prior, informed consent. There may be royalties, taxes or fees involved, as there are for other levels of government. If they say no, you don't have a project.

The Tsleil Waututh harvested shellfish in Vancouver Harbour for thousands of years, but that fishery has been closed for many years. Too many contaminants from industrial activity and sewage in the harbor. They have a vision of using shellfish as an economic driver for their community. Again, through a shared governance model, let's move towards that. It means they get a say in local development to help them realize their vision of a sustainable economy, not just prov and federal governments.


Then the idea of a reserve becomes moot. You don't have 5 square km where you are essentially wards of the state. You have a large tradiational territory that you know more about than anybody else and a big say in what goes on there.

That is my vision and passion, anyway. Not "mine" as in I thought of it--this is the direction the NDN movement has been working towards. I share it.

It's not a solution. There is no solution. It's a better way to live together, because the reality is that neither white folks and Indians are going anywhere.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:21 pm
 


Zipperfish wrote:
Tricks wrote:
Zip I don't disagree that the Government should take responsibility for what has occurred in the past. How would they go about making it right, in your view?


I can't speak for Saskatchewan, but in BC--where the gov't and courts are on record that the residents here are on unceded land (there were very few treaties in BC, none in the Lower Mainland around Vancouver).


So I work on developing agreements with local First Nations on a shared governance models. Not just notification, not just consultation, but actual shared governance. You want to build a grain terminal? Well that's, say, Musqueam traditional territory. You need your approvals from the province and the feds, maybe a municipality or regional district. But you also need approval from the Musqueam. Prior, informed consent. There may be royalties, taxes or fees involved, as there are for other levels of government. If they say no, you don't have a project.

The Tsleil Waututh harvested shellfish in Vancouver Harbour for thousands of years, but that fishery has been closed for many years. Too many contaminants from industrial activity and sewage in the harbor. They have a vision of using shellfish as an economic driver for their community. Again, through a shared governance model, let's move towards that. It means they get a say in local development to help them realize their vision of a sustainable economy, not just prov and federal governments.


Then the idea of a reserve becomes moot. You don't have 5 square km where you are essentially wards of the state. You have a large tradiational territory that you know more about than anybody else and a big say in what goes on there.

That is my vision and passion, anyway.

It's not a solution. There is no solution. It's a better way to live together, because the reality is that neither white folks and Indians are going anywhere.

And what happens if they block projects because they can, with no real rhyme or reason? I don't know if it would happen, but we both know many of the reserves are run by exceedingly corrupt people. I don't think it's too much of a leap that some (certainly not all) would block stuff either because they can and they want to stick it to the man, or because they want to be paid off. Would there be a proper system in place on the FN side to ensure this doesn't happen?


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