CKA Forums
Login 
canadian forums
bottom
 
 
Canadian Forums

Author Topic Options
Offline
CKA Uber
CKA Uber
User avatar
Profile
Posts: 13932

Warnings: (40%)
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 1:48 pm
 


OnTheIce wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
No, the difference is that an e-health system, public transit smartcards and air-ambulance service are GOOD ideas, put forward by government, that were poorly implemented by bumbling civil servants. OCoT and MPAC were bad government ideas that should never have been implemented. I agree with you on the powerplant disaster.
typo edits


But that's your opinion, on what's a good or bad idea.

You may think MPAC and OCoT are bad ideas, but many would disagree.

How about Walkerton? But that was only human lives lost, not money, so probably no big deal in your books, just like Harris closing every hospital and school he coulod get his hands on and putting the proviince at the bottom of just about every mearsure.


Offline
CKA Uber
CKA Uber
Profile
Posts: 10717
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 2:07 pm
 


Lemmy wrote:
Really? Who? Who thinks useless bureaucracy is a good idea?


Again Lemmy...your opinion.

Clearly, MCGuinty doesn't agree with you either as both are still chugging along.

BeaverFever wrote:
How about Walkerton? But that was only human lives lost, not money, so probably no big deal in your books, just like Harris closing every hospital and school he coulod get his hands on and putting the proviince at the bottom of just about every mearsure.


Walkerton? :lol: The one where two employees decided not to do their jobs and falsify records and where the blame was laid at the feet of the public utlitiy? Really Beaver, trying to pin Walkerton on the Premier is laughable. I know you're going to point do private water testing to be the cause but it's just not the case. What did McGuinty to do improve the situation post-Harris?

And we're going to blame Harris for closing hospitals and overlook the massive transfer cuts (30 billion) from the federal government during his era? You'd be surprised to know that the Ontario government replaced all the funds they didn't receive from the feds and added more!

Again, what did McGuinty do to "fix" that problem? I didn't see him go back and open all facilities again. He's actually cutting 3 billion over the next few years


Offline
CKA Uber
CKA Uber
Profile
Posts: 12434
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 5:33 pm
 


Clearly there's a divide in our thinking that's not going to narrow. I don't like anything either party does and you don't like anything only one of them does.


Offline
CKA Uber
CKA Uber
Profile
Posts: 10717
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 5:40 pm
 


Lemmy wrote:
Clearly there's a divide in our thinking that's not going to narrow. I don't like anything either party does and you don't like anything only one of them does.


Lemmy, I have been arguably the most critical of Tim Hudak and the Ontario PC's so your comments above are nothing short of bullshit.

If you run out of things to say, that's fine...but leave the fiction at the door.


Offline
CKA Uber
CKA Uber
Profile
Posts: 12434
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 5:47 pm
 


Get back to me when Hudak has a government and you criticize something he does while in power. McGuinty's been shit, I agree, but Harris was worse (or, at least as bad). You disagree with that, which is the proof of my assertion above.


Offline
CKA Uber
CKA Uber
Profile
Posts: 10717
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 6:59 pm
 


Lemmy wrote:
Get back to me when Hudak has a government and you criticize something he does while in power. McGuinty's been shit, I agree, but Harris was worse (or, at least as bad). You disagree with that, which is the proof of my assertion above.


I dont think Harris was worse. Our Province was in better shape with Harris without a doubt. You may not agree with his policy as its clear you dont like brash politicians but our Province was better with Harris than McGuinty. Numbers dont lie.


Offline
CKA Uber
CKA Uber
Profile
Posts: 12434
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 7:07 pm
 


Bullshit.


Offline
CKA Uber
CKA Uber
 Vancouver Canucks
User avatar
Profile
Posts: 20991
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 7:09 pm
 


Yeah, I'm with OTI on this one. Generally speaking partisan people will seek to lower the blame as far as possible for "their" side and raise it as much as posible for the other. So the screw-up at, say, Abu Ghraib was, according to the Republicans a local administrative problem and, according to Democrats, a fault of the most senior leadership.

In essence Lemmy is doing the same thing. McSquinty's screw-ups were local administrative failures, whereas Harris's were due to problems at teh top.

edit for spleling. ha ha ha


Last edited by Zipperfish on Mon Mar 18, 2013 7:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Offline
CKA Uber
CKA Uber
 Montreal Canadiens
User avatar
Profile
Posts: 29237
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 7:09 pm
 


[popcorn]


Offline
CKA Uber
CKA Uber
Profile
Posts: 10717
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 7:24 pm
 


Lemmy wrote:
Bullshit.


Explain.

Facts please. Not just your personal opinion.


Offline
Forum Elite
Forum Elite
Profile
Posts: 1177
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 8:22 pm
 


raydan wrote:
[popcorn]

Can you pass some over here?


Offline
CKA Uber
CKA Uber
 Vancouver Canucks


GROUP_AVATAR

GROUP_AVATAR
User avatar
Profile
Posts: 23859
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 8:28 pm
 


Image


Offline
CKA Uber
CKA Uber
User avatar
Profile
Posts: 13932

Warnings: (40%)
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 9:48 pm
 


Quote:
Walkerton? The one where two employees decided not to do their jobs and falsify records and where the blame was laid at the feet of the public utlitiy? Really Beaver, trying to pin Walkerton on the Premier is laughable. I know you're going to point do private water testing to be the cause but it's just not the case.


From the Walkerton Report http://www.attorneygeneral.jus.gov.on.ca/english/about/pubs/walkerton/part1/WI_Chapter_11.pdf (PDF). Too much to copy and paste for you to get a full appreciation, here are some of the jucier parts:

Quote:
Chapter 11: The Ministry of the Environment Budget Reductions

In January 1998, an internal MOE document reported that the ministry had been “particularly hard hit” in com­parison with other ministries. It stated that since 1995–96, the MOE budget had been reduced by 48.4%.

... I conclude that the budget reductions had two types of effects on the tragedy in Walkerton. First, with respect to the decision to privatize the laboratory testing of drinking water samples, and especially the way in which that deci­sion was implemented, the budget reductions are connected directly to the events of May 2000. S
econd, in the case of the MOE’s approvals and inspec­tions programs, the budget reductions are indirectly linked to the events in May 2000 in that they made it less likely that the MOE would pursue proac­tive measures that would have prevented or limited the tragedy.

...On many occasions during the MOE’s first business plan process in 1995 and 1996, ministry staff warned senior management, the Minister of the Environment, and the Cabinet that the impact of the budget reductions being imposed on the ministry presented risks to the environment and public health.

11.4 The Cabinet Decision and the Lack of a Risk Assessment
The MOE’s business plan, with its discussion of associated risks, was approved by the Cabinet on February 28, 1996. As I have mentioned, those risks were significant. The business plan warned of a reduced capacity in the MOE to detect or control violations of environmental standards because of slower response times, less information available for responding to inquiries, and reduced technical expertise.

...Premier Michael Harris, who chaired the Cabinet meeting at which the MOE’s business plan was approved on February 28, 1996, testified that he would have asked if the impacts were a concern, but he does not recall making such an inquiry. He does not recall seeking advice regarding whether the risks could be managed. Premier Harris could not identify any documents that persuaded him that the increased risks to the environment and public health could be managed. He accepted that as chair of the Policy and Priorities Board and chair of the Cabinet, which approved the 1996 business plan, he is accountable if any of these reductions are found to have contributed to the tragedy in Walkerton.


Dude, it just goes on and on. You should read it.
Quote:
What did McGuinty to do improve the situation post-Harris?

Read the OP.


Quote:
And we're going to blame Harris for closing hospitals and overlook the massive transfer cuts (30 billion) from the federal government during his era?
Harris enacted massive tax cuts and tax freezes - if these were all such tough decusions and he was doing the best he could to maintain services, why the tax cuts and corporate giveaways. Also, his absurd comments that the nurses he laid off nurses are like hoola-hoop makers when the hoola-hoop lost popularity suggest that he wasn't shedding any real tears. Also, did you give Miller any slack over provincial downloading? Do you criticize Harris for UNPRECEDENTED downloading he forced on cities, that has left Toronto a financially challenged city ever since??? No you conveniently dodge that...downloadings only bad when Liberals do it. Only Harris deserves excuses eh? It's the Fed's fault, the underlings fault, the municipalities fault, the fault of everyone who doesn't have a PC party membership right? Meanwhile only Liberals are to blame for things that happen when they are in government. Gimme a break.

Quote:
You'd be surprised to know that the Ontario government replaced all the funds they didn't receive from the feds and added more!
Didn't you just finish saying he closed the hospitals because he had no choice? Now you're saying Harris had more money than ever. Mostly from one-time sell-offs of things like hospitals, schools and highways (at firesale prices). The stock market bubble was also good for the economy Continent-wide, but had nothing to do with anything happening in Ontario.


Quote:
Again, what did McGuinty do to "fix" that problem? I didn't see him go back and open all facilities again.
Dude are you sure you live in Ontario? McGuinty's already BUILT 18 new hospitals since he took office...thats 2 per year (Harris closed 28 hospitals) and the Liberals upgraded/refurbished many more. He also hired almost 12,000 nurses (Harris fired more than 6,000).

Quote:
He's actually cutting 3 billion over the next few years
The provinvial budget is approximately $110 Billion per year. So $3B "over a few years", if true, doesn't sound like much.


Offline
CKA Uber
CKA Uber
 Toronto Maple Leafs
User avatar
Profile
Posts: 14114

Warnings: (20%)
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 11:33 pm
 


BeaverFever wrote:
PublicAnimalNo9 wrote:
20,000 jobs? I call bullshit.

You're right, that's an outdated figure from middle of 2011. When the Auditor General released his 2011 report, he pegged the number at 30,000. To be fair, at this point, many of these are construction jobs related to building 'green' facilities and infrastructure, not actual 'green energy' jobs.
Construction projects ain't job creation, it's giving contracts to those that already HAVE jobs.
Acutal NEW jobs created I'd estimate to be in the hundreds if the three examples I mentioned earlier are any indication.

Quote:
All the while, Ontario bleeds $400-500 million a year from the losses to OPC. Billions were spent to generate a "whopping" 1500MW of wind power that did nothing to reduce Ontario's emissions from power generation and added to the over surplus of hydro Ontario already produced.


BeaverFever wrote:
Well, the "potential" future cost if no changes are made is officially pegged at $200M by 2018, but The IESO has already drafted new rules that will allow it to shut output from wind and solar operators to the system when there’s surplus power. Really, this is a problem of the wind/solar program being too successful. When McG took office in 2003, there were ten (10) wind turbines operating in all of Ontario. By year-end 2011, there were over 900. That's progress. Also you should note that energy surplus is often sold at a profit, only sometimes is it sold at a loss or given away.
Billions of dollars for a pet ideology project is NOT a success when it's not only pointless, but drives up domestic hydro rates. What I will take note of is not what you tell me but what various sources have explained, way too much surplus hydro gets dumped.
BeaverFever wrote:
Currently, wind/solar is just an auxiliary source for a primarily conventional gas-and-nuke power grid, but I bet the day isn't too far off when the roles reverse; where wind/solar provide the baseline power for the grid and conventional plants are only fired up to meet spikes in demand or dips in green output, and/or when most homes and buildings are primarily self-generating through their own wind/solar installations and the power grid is just a back-up source.
Unfortunately the IESO doesn't quite agree with you. Because of the vagaries of nature, wind and solar won't be able to provide base load generation without having the countryside fairly over-run by mirrors and windmills.
Getting solar power to the point where the average homeowner can afford it and get some time off the grid is what we need to be shooting for. The fact that billions were spent to keep people dependent on the grid speaks volumes.[/quote]
Quote:
It's also interesting to see McNuggets praised for helping to bail out Ontario's manufacturing base re: the auto industry, while Harper was castigated for "wasting taxpayer's money" for the same thing.

BeaverFever wrote:
Some people were for the bail-outs, some weren't, it wasn't a left-right thing. I don't think there was anyone praising one while castigating the other.
You could be right. I just don't recall any of the media patting Harper on the back and saying "great job".

Quote:
In Ontario, the end cost after all the friggin' windmills is FAR from reasonable and demand has been MORE than met for decades without the stupid things.

BeaverFever wrote:
Wrong. Between 1998 and 2005, the province was almost always a net importer.
Uh yeah, and most of those years we're talking fractional amounts. From 1991 to 1997, Ontario was a major net EXPORTER of hydro.
BeaverFever wrote:
Only since 2006 has Ontario exported more power than it has imported (every year in fact).
That's not only wrong, it's lazy research. And these days, what's the point of being a big exporter of hydro when the exports cost 3.2 cents/ KWh while the Ontario rate payer gets to shell out as much 14 cents/KWh.
BeaverFever wrote:
Again, being a victim of our own success.
Yep, and we did it pretty much through the 90s as well with only 10 windmills or fewer. Of course one need only take a good look at Ontario's manufacturing sector and one can easily see why Ontario has so much more hydro to export these days.
BeaverFever wrote:
This isn't all attributable to wind, mind you. By year-end 2011, McG had added 8,900 megawatts of generating capacity since he took office (4 million homes' worth), of which, approximately 2,000 megawatts (almost 1 million homes)was from renewable sources. Also, energy consumption has been declining since 2005 as traditional manufacturing has continued its decline across North America.
The problem is, those numbers are way out of whack. There are about 13.5 million households in Canada. The numbers you mention indicate that Ontario has enough capacity for 17-18 million households, or to put it another way, Ontario apparently has nearly the capacity to generate enough electricty to supply every home in Ontario twice over, PLUS every house in the rest of Canada. Hell, Ontario's nuclear and hydro-electric output alone as of the hour I'm writing this post, are providing power to almost 10 million homes across 3 provinces and 5 US states.
Meanwhile I'm shelling out almost 14 fucking cents a KWh for something Ontario exports for 3.2 cents/KWh while it dumps the surplus.
Quote:
Simply put, green energy has not reduced emissions, except possibly by accident as some heavy industries pulled out to look for cheaper hydro rates.

BeaverFever wrote:
Closing the coal plants reduced airborne particulates (smog) by over 90%, which is what the article says. The article is about his entire environmental legacy, not just wind and solar initiatives.
I hate it when people selectively read what's been posted. I specifically stated a while back that McNuggets could have easily closed the coal plants and not bothered with the windmills, still leaving Ontario with a capacity of over 31,000MW before NPP refurbishments.

Quote:
Who the fuck wants to buy a piece of property with a wonking big 100m tall turbine or two on it?

BeaverFever wrote:
I assume you mean NEAR it.
Don't assume bud, it makes you look silly. That stretch of 401 through Essex and Kent counties is as well known to me as my own family. Many of the 400+ turbines eye-polluting the place are ON private property. The owners were of course paid for it, along with a heaping helping of bullshit about the turbines.
BeaverFever wrote:
But who wants to by property near an airport, landfill, gas plant, nuke plant, prison, quarry, casino, or any other such thing? Doesn't mean we shouldn't have any of those.
I don't feel like playing strawman today, thanks.
BeaverFever wrote:
McGuinty is villain for ignoring NIMBYism and building turbines near some property owners but also for succumbing to NIMBYism and NOT building gas plants near other property owners. Sounds like he can't win for losing.
Yep, cuz he's a partisan asshole. The rural area along the 401 tends to vote Conservative and many have these things ON THEIR LAND, while the ridings where the gas plants were supposed to be built were Liberal ridings.
I've seen the asshole play the same games with more than one city's healthcare too.

Quote:
In fact, if Ontario had just shut down the coal plants and never bothered building windmills, Ontario would still have over 31,000 MW of installed capacity.

BeaverFever wrote:
The plan is to phase-in a new technology and phase-out an older technology, to do that responsibly there will be overlap. The new technology will inevitably be expensive when new, but become cheaper (and more efficient) as it becomes more prevalent - not unlike other new technologies.
That's a nice sentiment and all but the European countries that led the way in green energy have cut most, to all subsidies to wind and solar power. EVERY single one of them has seen the negative effects on employment and the economy. Right now Ontario has a currently installed generating capacity of just short of 36,000MW. Shutting down the coal plants and NOT building windmills would have still left us with over 31,000MW of capacity, before any NPP refurbs.

Quote:
Pretty easy to be "green" when a combination of economic failure and insane, ever increasing power rates (Samsung needed their profits padded) has turned your economy moribund.

BeaverFever wrote:
Yes, the rest of the world was booming while Ontario and only Ontario faltered. :roll: Ever hear of something called the global economic meltdown?

Would that not qualify as "economic failure"? I for one, think it was nice of McNuggets to dogpile onto a problem that Harper got shit on for exclaiming wasn't going to happen.
I mean if Harper was stupid for claiming the economy was looking free and clear back in 2005 when apparently all the experts new otherwise, then how stupid is McNuggets for instituting a policy he knew damn well was going to be pointless and needlessly expensive for Ontario during a time of economic turmoil?


Offline
CKA Uber
CKA Uber
Profile
Posts: 10717
PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 8:06 am
 


BeaverFever wrote:

From the Walkerton Report http://www.attorneygeneral.jus.gov.on.ca/english/about/pubs/walkerton/part1/WI_Chapter_11.pdf (PDF). Too much to copy and paste for you to get a full appreciation, here are some of the jucier parts:



Funny how you skipped to chapter 11. Actually, it's not funny, it's typical.

Of course the MOE played a part in the failure of the process especially considering these procedures were going in improperly for 20 years.

Dude, it just goes on and on. You should read it.
Quote:
What did McGuinty to do improve the situation post-Harris?

Read the OP.

BeaverFever wrote:
Harris enacted massive tax cuts and tax freezes - if these were all such tough decusions and he was doing the best he could to maintain services, why the tax cuts and corporate giveaways.


Sorry, you lost me at the lefty nonsese of "corporate giveaways".

BeaverFever wrote:
Also, did you give Miller any slack over provincial downloading? Do you criticize Harris for UNPRECEDENTED downloading he forced on cities, that has left Toronto a financially challenged city ever since??? No you conveniently dodge that...downloadings only bad when Liberals do it. Only Harris deserves excuses eh? It's the Fed's fault, the underlings fault, the municipalities fault, the fault of everyone who doesn't have a PC party membership right? Meanwhile only Liberals are to blame for things that happen when they are in government. Gimme a break.


The downloading happened long before Miller. Shit flows downhill. Chretien-Harris-Lastman, naturally the costs were transferred down.

BeaverFever wrote:
Didn't you just finish saying he closed the hospitals because he had no choice?


No, didn't say that.

BeaverFever wrote:
Now you're saying Harris had more money than ever. Mostly from one-time sell-offs of things like hospitals, schools and highways (at firesale prices). The stock market bubble was also good for the economy Continent-wide, but had nothing to do with anything happening in Ontario.


Health care spending was up despite the reduction in transfers from the Feds.


BeaverFever wrote:
Dude are you sure you live in Ontario? McGuinty's already BUILT 18 new hospitals since he took office...thats 2 per year (Harris closed 28 hospitals) and the Liberals upgraded/refurbished many more. He also hired almost 12,000 nurses (Harris fired more than 6,000).


They have not built 18 new hospitals. That's their plan, but they have not built 18 new hospitals. Not even close. Also, the plan is in doubt, obviously due to a lack of money:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/pol ... cle536179/


Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 79 posts ]  Previous  1  2  3  4  5  6  Next



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest




 
     
All logos and trademarks in this site are property of their respective owner.
The comments are property of their posters, all the rest © Canadaka.net. Powered by © phpBB.