CKA Forums
Login 
canadian forums
bottom
 
 
Canadian Forums

Author Topic Options
Offline
CKA Super Elite
CKA Super Elite
 Edmonton Oilers
User avatar
Profile
Posts: 6948
PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2011 6:07 am
 


It's still breathing.


Attachments:
1297203694223_COMICS.jpg
1297203694223_COMICS.jpg [ 38.04 KiB | Viewed 294 times ]
Offline
CKA Uber
CKA Uber
Profile
Posts: 10717
PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2011 6:35 am
 


Lemmy wrote:
That's not exclusive to Conservatives. Everyone wants to get better service for their tax dollars. But you ARE getting better service than under Mike Harris' slash and burn of healthcare. McGuinty's "overspending" is, in large measure, a result of Harris' underspending. When you buy a shitbox instead of a well-maintained used car, you have to expect that you're going to put more money into it to keep it on the road. Harris ran the goddamn thing into the ground.


Let's not also forget that it cannot all be placed at the feet of Harris. The Federal government of the time was slashing transfer payments to the Provinces at well, yet Harris took the brunt of the blame.

Lemmy wrote:
So where has the government been irresponsible with the money? The e-health boondoggle, for example, was a civil service fuck-up that would have gone down exactly the same way no matter what government was in power. It's not something that could have been foreseen.


As an economist, you have no problem with raising taxes massively yet still outspending yourself, doubling your debt in 8 years? I see that as being very irresponsible.

Lemmy wrote:
Rising healthcare costs and aging population. That's outside the power of ANY government to fix and it's only going to get worse, no matter who's governing, until all the Baby Boomers kick off.


I thought that's what the health premium was supposed to deal with. Inject a large amount of cash into an ailing system?

That doesn't account for the 80% increase in overall expenditures.

Lemmy wrote:
I still don't know what mistakes you believe he's made. He was handed a poorly maintained clunker and he's tried to make the necessary repairs to keep the thing on the road. We're ALREADY into decades of recovering from Harris' mistakes. I don't see how you can logically lay the blame at anyone else's door.


It's not on the road.

Financially, we're on the edge of a cliff. I'm surprised that you're in support of his financial management.

Sure, we have some nice shiny new things in the Province, but eventually a time will come where services or cut or taxes are raised to make up for poor financial management.

Our Province has turned into a giant Leons "Buy Now, Pay Later" system...Interest rates are low....so let's blow a ton of money and let the next generation deal with it.


Offline
CKA Super Elite
CKA Super Elite
 Ottawa Senators
User avatar
Profile
Posts: 7706
PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2011 10:39 am
 


Quote:
I thought that's what the health premium was supposed to deal with. Inject a large amount of cash into an ailing system?


The funds collected with the "Health tax" go into general revenues and not all of it is invested in OHIP.

I'm not sure if there is any way to find out where the rest is going?


Offline
CKA Uber
CKA Uber
User avatar
Profile
Posts: 15779
PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2011 10:40 am
 


ShepherdsDog wrote:
So you can buy it outside of Ontario and use it to your heart's content?



Yep, stupid eh? Plus hotels, resorts, golf clubs and farmers can get it just like before.

Home Depot in Niagara Falls NY make great business.


Offline
CKA Uber
CKA Uber
User avatar
Profile
Posts: 15779
PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2011 10:48 am
 


Lemmy wrote:
Well, if it makes you feel any shittier, I drove through Shelburne today on the way to my cottage and about 6 of the 200 windmills there were actually turning. :D



Don't get me wrong Lemmy, I think it's wise to explore alternate energy sources. I'm even up for tax breaks etc but the Samsung deal was a bad deal.

Locking us into buying wind-generated electricity at rates more than ten-times the market rate for hydro, paying for that with our taxes plus jacking up our hydro bills by about 20%.

Not good.

Hudak could have hammered away at that and the health care premium and won. What a plonker, he deserves to be leader of the Opposition in the Legislature.


Offline
CKA Super Elite
CKA Super Elite
 Ottawa Senators
User avatar
Profile
Posts: 7706
PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2011 10:52 am
 


Quote:
Locking us into buying wind-generated electricity at rates more than ten-times the market rate for hydro, paying for that with our taxes plus jacking up our hydro bills by about 20%.


All taxed at 13% HST instead of 5% GST.

Dalton's medicine tastes like battery acid.


Offline
CKA Uber
CKA Uber
Profile
Posts: 12434
PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2011 4:30 pm
 


OnTheIce wrote:
Let's not also forget that it cannot all be placed at the feet of Harris. The Federal government of the time was slashing transfer payments to the Provinces at well, yet Harris took the brunt of the blame.

That's true, but healthcare is a provincial matter. The feds have no obligation, under the constitution, to fund healthcare or education at all. The provinces do.

OnTheIce wrote:
As an economist, you have no problem with raising taxes massively yet still outspending yourself, doubling your debt in 8 years? I see that as being very irresponsible.

If the cost of healthcare goes up and you need to spend more on it, that's just the way it is. It's like when gasoline prices go up. It pisses us off, but there's nothing you can do about it. The solution isn't to stop providing healthcare. The solution is to raise taxes. You're right, though, there should be no increase in debt. We should be paying our way in the form of higher taxes.

OnTheIce wrote:
I thought that's what the health premium was supposed to deal with. Inject a large amount of cash into an ailing system? That doesn't account for the 80% increase in overall expenditures.

It wasn't enough money. The health premium needed to be a lot higher to cover the costs.

OnTheIce wrote:
It's not on the road. Financially, we're on the edge of a cliff. I'm surprised that you're in support of his financial management.

It's got nothing to do with financial management. It's MASSIVE increases in healthcare costs.

OnTheIce wrote:
Sure, we have some nice shiny new things in the Province, but eventually a time will come where services or cut or taxes are raised to make up for poor financial management. Our Province has turned into a giant Leons "Buy Now, Pay Later" system...Interest rates are low....so let's blow a ton of money and let the next generation deal with it.

On that we agree, but the solution isn't to cut healthcare. The right thing to do is to increase taxes to maintain healthcare. I'd be in favour of cutting every other thing from the provincial budget, save healthcare and education. And I also totally agree with you that budgets should be balanced. But the problem is one of cost and that's outside of the power of McGuinty or anyone else to affect. The only way to cover increasing costs is to raise taxes, provincially, and if we're still too overtaxed we need to start slashing from the federal budget. But healthcare and education need to be properly funded. Those things are necessities.


Offline
CKA Uber
CKA Uber
User avatar
Profile
Posts: 33600
PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2011 4:55 pm
 


I wouldn't be surprised if some other things turn out to be necessities for provincial funding as well. Transportation comes immediately to mind. Social services - all those children in foster care etc, you want to just cut that out? Even welfare, cut that and you get even more homelessness and crime, which as has been shown, cost us more than welfare. The Center for Policy Alternatives has figured out that if we spend 12 billion in eliminating poverty, we would save 25 billion in social costs, a lot of which is health care. Even if they're out by 100%, and it would take 25 billion to save 25 billion, isn't that money well spent? Parks - don't spend $1 on them? etc etc. There isn't really nearly as much fat in government spending as people like to think, and as the people in Ford Country are finding out to their chagrin. We've been sold a lot of bullshit, that we can have a well organized society, but one that doesn't cost anything. Seems to be more a matter of take your pick, Somalia or Sweden. I know what I choose.


Offline
CKA Uber
CKA Uber
User avatar
Profile
Posts: 15779
PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2011 5:02 pm
 


Same old BS eh andy?


Offline
CKA Uber
CKA Uber
Profile
Posts: 10717
PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2011 5:29 pm
 


Lemmy wrote:
That's true, but healthcare is a provincial matter. The feds have no obligation, under the constitution, to fund healthcare or education at all. The provinces do.


But they do. You wake up one day and you're now billions short on health care payments.

If Stephen Harper woke up tomorrow and cut all health transfer payments to Ontario, would it be McGuinty's fault that he has to start reducing spending or raise taxes in a massive way?

No.

BTW, during the Harris era, health care spending increased by almost 10 billion. Because he didn't kiss union ass like McGuinty, he's the devil.

Lemmy wrote:
If the cost of healthcare goes up and you need to spend more on it, that's just the way it is. It's like when gasoline prices go up. It pisses us off, but there's nothing you can do about it. The solution isn't to stop providing healthcare. The solution is to raise taxes. You're right, though, there should be no increase in debt. We should be paying our way in the form of higher taxes.


The 80% increase in revenue and all the increases in taxes didn't all go to health care. Why do you keep going on as if health care is the only expenditure?

Lemmy wrote:
It wasn't enough money. The health premium needed to be a lot higher to cover the costs.

It's got nothing to do with financial management. It's MASSIVE increases in healthcare costs.


The Federal government is increasing health transfers by 6% and yet Ontario is only increasing it's spend by 3%.

That's great. Where's the rest being spent? Where's the rest of our health premium being spent.

McGuinty promises to increase health spending from 48 billion to 53 billion by 2014.

That means, he will increase spending by 5 billion while at the same time, taking in 10. (2.5 billion per year comes in from the Health Care Premium).

Lemmy wrote:
On that we agree, but the solution isn't to cut healthcare. The right thing to do is to increase taxes to maintain healthcare. I'd be in favour of cutting every other thing from the provincial budget, save healthcare and education. And I also totally agree with you that budgets should be balanced. But the problem is one of cost and that's outside of the power of McGuinty or anyone else to affect. The only way to cover increasing costs is to raise taxes, provincially, and if we're still too overtaxed we need to start slashing from the federal budget. But healthcare and education need to be properly funded. Those things are necessities.


I'm not advocating cuts. I'm advocating responsibility.

Speaking of cuts, Dalton is now looking to cut. He's looking to cut 1 billion from hospitals and another 1.5 billion by hoping the doctors will take a pay freeze.

Notice how McGuinty kissed the ass of the unions, hiring 10,000 nurses, giving them all increases then turning around and asking the doctors to make up the difference?


Offline
Forum Elite
Forum Elite
Profile
Posts: 1254
PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2011 8:44 pm
 


How did McGuinty "kiss the ass of Unions" by hiring 10,000 Nurses. There had been a shortage of nurses since Harris took it upon himself to fire thousands who, in many cases, had no alternative but to leave for the USA.

A great cost saving for the education and healthcare systems in his fevered mind. We certainly do not even now have too many nurses.

Health funding is, in every province, an expense to general revenues. Health "taxes" have no there place to be put. They are also not unique to Ontario. B.C. and Quebec also have them and Alberta did until it became bloated with oil revenues.

The chief reason for the increase in Health care costs is new technology and drugs. It is not wastage. If Canada could begin to act like a country and do things to that scale, it could bring down those costs.

Also, McGuinty's emphasis on wait times is dead right. Long wait times cost the province (and country) many billions each year through lost production and, often, worsening conditions requiring more expensive treatment.

There are things that can be done but they will not be until we have a federal government that is serious about healthcare and not ideologically opposed to its involvement. And provinces that would cooperate with each other and be a little less jealous of jurisdiction.


Offline
CKA Uber
CKA Uber
User avatar
Profile
Posts: 15779
PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 10:06 am
 


I have paid a lot more in taxes over the past 8 years with the health care premium etc. Not one hospital has been built in the region I live in despite an extra 100,000 people moving in. The three hospitals are bulging at the seams and have been for years. People in gurneys in hallways is the stark reality of the past 8 years of Liberal rule.

Oh, and health care is a provincial responsibility so don't try blaming Evil Stevie.


Offline
CKA Super Elite
CKA Super Elite
User avatar
Profile
Posts: 8211
PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 11:07 am
 


EyeBrock wrote:
I have paid a lot more in taxes over the past 8 years with the health care premium etc. Not one hospital has been built in the region I live in despite an extra 100,000 people moving in. The three hospitals are bulging at the seams and have been for years. People in gurneys in hallways is the stark reality of the past 8 years of Liberal rule.

Oh, and health care is a provincial responsibility so don't try blaming Evil Stevie.

Sorry Brock, but his official title is The Right Honourable VERY Evil Stevie. Just for your info.


Offline
CKA Uber
CKA Uber
User avatar
Profile
Posts: 15779
PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 11:14 am
 


I quite like that Fife!


Offline
CKA Uber
CKA Uber
User avatar
Profile
Posts: 33600
PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 11:38 am
 


I thought it was RH Scumsucker. Let's hope that with the Redford election, this loss, and the Edsel situation in TO, Scumsucker's righty tighty base is eroding away.


Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 90 posts ]  Previous  1  2  3  4  5  6



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest



cron
 
     
All logos and trademarks in this site are property of their respective owner.
The comments are property of their posters, all the rest © Canadaka.net. Powered by © phpBB.