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CKA Uber
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2015 10:41 am
 


Lemmy wrote:
A strike was avoided for most of the province.


On the backs of kids at risk of dropping out.

And who cares about those other 70,000 kids that missed 5 weeks, eh?

Lemmy wrote:
By your silly logic, you should be able to tell teachers how to spend their money too, eh? After all it's your money, right? I'll get my sister to call you up and make sure it's okay with you next time she buys a coffee or maxipads.


Not even close.

I have a right to express how I think my tax dollars should be spent. The government is accountable for how it spends our money. They work for us.


Lemmy wrote:
Teachers don't get any more of your money than anyone else you pay (your plumber, the grocery store owner, etc, etc). Your entire line of reasoning is flawed.


No wonder you 'teach' at Farmer U.

Lemmy wrote:
But none of that means anything to you. You hate teachers and you hate unions. So it doesn't matter that Ontario has one of the best education systems in the world.


I love teachers. I hate teacher unions. Militant, backwards, selfish, greedy....just some of the things I heard from Durham teachers during this past strike while they sat out 5 weeks, lost thousands in pay all for an illegal strike that put students LAST.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2015 11:09 am
 


This is why you'll hear actual Libertarians say things like.

Quote:
Dismantle and prohibit all government unions; only private sector unions that receive no funding from government should be legal.


https://www.lp.org/sample-libertarian-solutions

They worry about this:

Quote:
4) Public sector unions have, under some conditions, a considerable ability to capture both sides of the bargaining table and seriously weaken public sector budget restraint.


http://bleedingheartlibertarians.com/2012/06/3087/

So you can talk about 2 sides, but what do you do when they both become one? Whose money is it then? Then it becomes two sides arguing over the best way to divide money taken from everybody else. According to the article in the OP these millions were delivered directly to the union not the members. Public sector unions donate to the election campaigns in Ontario.

Quote:
Unions
Public-sector unions were some of the biggest donors to political parties, with teachers’ unions among the most generous. Like corporations, unions are allowed to exceed the $9,300 limit by giving individual donations through their local bargaining units. That has allowed the Ontario English Catholic Teachers Association to donate more than $64,000 — most of it going to the Liberals.


http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canad ... in-ontario

Then there's endorsement from the union to members.

When the Libertarians at Reason were discussing the labor unrest of public sector unions versus Walker in Wisconsin they said:

Quote:
The Wisconsin fight seems to show far more pure love of defending to the death whatever piece of the pie anyone has sunk their teeth into, as long as we can posit that the "them" being starved to death by evil government are "us." And given the income differences between most public sector employees and the great populist masses, that's been annoyingly easy to do in the Wisconsin crisis.


https://reason.com/blog/2011/02/25/how- ... ore-powerf

And I wonder if it isn't the 'us versus them' thing On the Ice was objecting to. If it's us versus them, he's not seeing himself as among the us. When Government and unions are divvying up funds taken from "them". He's seeing himself as "them.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2015 11:17 am
 


OnTheIce wrote:
I have a right to express how I think my tax dollars should be spent. The government is accountable for how it spends our money. They work for us.

Your tax dollars are no longer your dollars once you give them to the government. Once the government gives money to the school boards, then it's the school board's money, not yours. You don't get to say how the school board spends money any more than you get to tell the grocery store owner how to spend his money. You understand that school boards are private businesses, right? They're not government agencies.

OTI wrote:
No wonder you 'teach' at Farmer U.

Really? Is that the way you want to go with this? You want to trade insults instead of having an adult discussion, huh?

OTI wrote:
I love teachers. I hate teacher unions. Militant, backwards, selfish, greedy....just some of the things I heard from Durham teachers during this past strike while they sat out 5 weeks, lost thousands in pay all for an illegal strike that put students LAST.

You're entitled to your opinion. Fortunately for public education, and the MASSIVE external benefits for society that it creates, most Ontarians don't share that opinion.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2015 11:26 am
 


Lemmy wrote:
Really? Is that the way you want to go with this? You want to trade insults instead of having an adult discussion, huh?


Adult discussion to you is: "I'm right, you're wrong" and the insults that soon follow when people don't agree with you. So let's calm the hypocrisy down a little.

You're whole argument about tax dollars is just nonsense. We do get to tell governments how to spend our money by a variety of things like elections, lobbying...even such things as Town Hall meetings.

Lemmy wrote:
most Ontarians don't share that opinion.


And you're entitled to your opinion as well.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2015 1:11 pm
 


OnTheIce wrote:
Adult discussion to you is: "I'm right, you're wrong" and the insults that soon follow when people don't agree with you. So let's calm the hypocrisy down a little.

When it comes to economics, specifically labour economics, more specifically public sector labour relations, you're right, I do think I'm right all the time...because I am. People who are experts in a particular field tend to get testy when non-experts argue with them. It's an occupational hazard, I suppose. And that frustration can lead to insults, but I'm working on it. You should too.

OTI wrote:
You're whole argument about tax dollars is just nonsense. We do get to tell governments how to spend our money by a variety of things like elections, lobbying...even such things as Town Hall meetings.

Protesting the things you disagree with government about is one thing. That doesn't mean you get a line-item veto. By the time school boards get money, it's no longer tax dollars. Just like if the government hires a painting company to paint a building. Once the money is paid to the painter, it's not tax dollars any more.

OTI wrote:
And you're entitled to your opinion as well.

There are opinions and expert opinions.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2015 1:20 pm
 


Lemmy wrote:
Your tax dollars are no longer your dollars once you give them to the government.


I don't GIVE my money to the government, they take what they want from my paycheck BEFORE I have any say in it.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2015 1:26 pm
 


BartSimpson wrote:
I don't GIVE my money to the government, they take what they want from my paycheck BEFORE I have any say in it.

Yep. Same here. But does it make a difference? Would you refuse to pay it if they just sent you a bill instead?

And remember, this is Canada: it's a paycheque. :wink:


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2015 2:08 pm
 


Lemmy wrote:
Yep. Same here. But does it make a difference? Would you refuse to pay it if they just sent you a bill instead?


It does make a difference because if I did care to protest by withholding my taxes I'd have that option. So would you.

Lemmy wrote:
And remember, this is Canada: it's a paycheque. :wink:


[B-o]


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2015 2:56 pm
 


BartSimpson wrote:
It does make a difference because if I did care to protest by withholding my taxes I'd have that option. So would you.

You could always quit your job and start a business. Then you could try it for real. :idea:


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2015 3:36 pm
 


Lemmy wrote:
BartSimpson wrote:
It does make a difference because if I did care to protest by withholding my taxes I'd have that option. So would you.

You could always quit your job and start a business. Then you could try it for real. :idea:


I'm partway there. The business is up and running and once my income hits a certain number I'm quitting the day job and leaving it in my past. We're also not doing too bad on rental income these days.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2015 9:52 am
 


http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/elementary ... -1.2624118

TORONTO -- Ontario elementary teachers and some support staff engaging in work-to-rule campaigns may soon see their pay docked.

R=UP


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2015 10:19 am
 


OnTheIce wrote:
http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/elementary-teachers-in-work-to-rule-could-have-pay-docked-wynne-1.2624118

TORONTO -- Ontario elementary teachers and some support staff engaging in work-to-rule campaigns may soon see their pay docked.

R=UP


The administrators better be careful with this stunt. "Work to rule" means you're doing only those things you're supposed to do as an employee.

If they dock their pay for not doing after-hours work then they're making the case to include those hours and duties in a contract for compensation.

They can also end up with wrongful termination lawsuits if they go so far as to fire a teacher for such egregious acts like showing up to work on time, leaving work on time, or taking all of the lunch time they're entitled to under law.

Inadvertently, the administrators are also making the case for why the teachers need a union.

It's such a stupid idea that I can't imagine that it's not deliberate. :idea:


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2015 10:25 am
 


OnTheIce wrote:
http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/elementary-teachers-in-work-to-rule-could-have-pay-docked-wynne-1.2624118

TORONTO -- Ontario elementary teachers and some support staff engaging in work-to-rule campaigns may soon see their pay docked.

R=UP

I've sat at the bargaining table dozens of times, both on management's side and union's and I've never urged/recommended a work-stoppage, whether strike or lock-out. If I were at the teachers' table and the province pulled this, I'd advise them to strike. Work-to-rule means you're doing the minimum required. You can't dock someone's pay if they're doing that. Bad idea, Liz, unless you're trying to provoke a strike.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2015 10:29 am
 


BartSimpson wrote:

The administrators better be careful with this stunt. "Work to rule" means you're doing only those things you're supposed to do as an employee.


I would think that the role of a custodian involves cleaning garbage off the floors, sweeping, etc. Would you agree?

They're not doing it. If you're not doing your job, you should be fired.
http://www.quintenews.com/2015/10/enoug ... ols/97845/

Why we allow this bullshit to continue over and over again is beyond me.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2015 10:40 am
 


BartSimpson wrote:
It's such a stupid idea that I can't imagine that it's not deliberate. :idea:

BINGO!


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