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PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 9:46 am
 


romanP wrote:
nope. fighting back has always worked.


Tell that to the teachers in Durham Region that lost about 7-8k in salary because they were forced out on an illegal strike by their union.

romanP wrote:

the Industrial Workers of the World is a union built on militant anti-capitalism, and voluntary, mutual co-operation. we oppose trade unionism because it is scab unionism. today's unions love to claim right to our successes, but they are only riding our coat-tails.


An industrial workers union that's anti-capitalist? :lol:


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 9:47 am
 


Lemmy wrote:
OnTheIce wrote:
Teachers need to be declared an essential service. That solves the striking issue and fair arbitration.

Horseshit. You're talking about daycare, not education.


It's only a matter of time before it happens.

Teachers shouldn't be allowed to hold the education of our kids hostage while they work out a contract.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 9:53 am
 


OnTheIce wrote:
romanP wrote:
nope. fighting back has always worked.


Tell that to the teachers in Durham Region that lost about 7-8k in salary because they were forced out on an illegal strike by their union.


that's not fighting back, that's a forced march. when a strike mandate comes from the workers and not a union boss, workers often win.

read about Jimmy John's sandwich shops recently being forced to pay back $800k in stolen wages. that is the result of solidarity unionism, and was won by IWW members. the workers formed a committee, came up with a plan, carried it out, struck militantly, and won.

Quote:
romanP wrote:

the Industrial Workers of the World is a union built on militant anti-capitalism, and voluntary, mutual co-operation. we oppose trade unionism because it is scab unionism. today's unions love to claim right to our successes, but they are only riding our coat-tails.


An industrial workers union that's anti-capitalist? :lol:


we live in a world of industry, and industry must continue even in the absence of capitalism. it is important to think of what our labour will look like in the absence of capitalism, lest we have no answer to the question "if we get rid of capitalism, what do we replace it with?".


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 10:14 am
 


romanP wrote:
we live in a world of industry, and industry must continue even in the absence of capitalism. it is important to think of what our labour will look like in the absence of capitalism, lest we have no answer to the question "if we get rid of capitalism, what do we replace it with?".


There have been several attempts to forcibly get rid of capitalism and capitalists. All of those attempts have resulted in mass murder and eventual poverty as socialism predictably morphs itself into totalitarianism.

Your heroes, the Soviets, 'liberated' much of Europe from capitalism and they created a worker's paradise that was so wickedly awesome they had to build a wall to keep everyone in.

And when their evil finally fell people went right back to building businesses and busying themselves with industry. And one of the victims of your goddamned philosophy, Poland, has this month elected a government that doesn't have even ONE shitstain leftist in it! Not one!

Free people will always reject your evil and wise people would do well to treat you like the threat that you are. Take your revolution somewhere that wants it. Like Venezuela.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 10:23 am
 


BartSimpson wrote:
romanP wrote:
we live in a world of industry, and industry must continue even in the absence of capitalism. it is important to think of what our labour will look like in the absence of capitalism, lest we have no answer to the question "if we get rid of capitalism, what do we replace it with?".


There have been several attempts to forcibly get rid of capitalism and capitalists. All of those attempts have resulted in mass murder and eventual poverty as socialism predictably morphs itself into totalitarianism.


no, those were attempts by capitalists in disguise to replace capitalsm with worse capitalism, assuming you are talking about Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Trotsky, and the other personality cult mass murderers. read about Kronstad, the Kurdish resistance, the Zapatistas, the Paris commune. these were and are all genuine anti-capitalist movements, and the ones that have failed have only done so because of fascist interference and murder.

Quote:
Your heroes, the Soviets, 'liberated' much of Europe from capitalism and they created a worker's paradise that was so wickedly awesome they had to build a wall to keep everyone in.


for the eleventy billionth time, the Soviets are no heroes of mine. their attempts to erase their guilt in acts of mass murder while pretending to be socialists disgusts me. please refer to the Bakunin quote in my signature for clarification.

Quote:
And when their evil finally fell people went right back to building businesses and busying themselves with industry. And one of the victims of your goddamned philosophy, Poland, has this month elected a government that doesn't have even ONE shitstain leftist in it! Not one!


and not-so-curiously, fascism is being courted in that very same government.


Last edited by romanP on Wed Oct 28, 2015 12:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 10:26 am
 


OnTheIce wrote:
Teachers shouldn't be allowed to hold the education of our kids hostage while they work out a contract.

Teachers? This time? No. Teachers worked the entire 2014-2015 year without a contract (except for the short walkout of a few boards at the end of last year). No, this time the shit ain't on the teachers. Put the blame where it lies: with the government and the boards. Teachers have accommodated the system by bargaining in good faith and continuing to work without a contract for over a year. This should have been dealt with before LAST SEPTEMBER and the blame for whatever work-stoppages are ahead isn't the teachers'.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 11:22 am
 


Lemmy wrote:
OnTheIce wrote:
Teachers shouldn't be allowed to hold the education of our kids hostage while they work out a contract.

Teachers? This time? No. Teachers worked the entire 2014-2015 year without a contract (except for the short walkout of a few boards at the end of last year). No, this time the shit ain't on the teachers. Put the blame where it lies: with the government and the boards. Teachers have accommodated the system by bargaining in good faith and continuing to work without a contract for over a year. This should have been dealt with before LAST SEPTEMBER and the blame for whatever work-stoppages are ahead isn't the teachers'.


It's never the fault of the teachers!

It wasn't their fault when the Premier was Bob Rae, Mike Harris, Ernie Eves, Dalton McGuinty and now, Kathleen Wynne.

Don't try to tell me that teachers have no other choice but to punish students.

Essential service designation isn't far away.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 11:27 am
 


romanP wrote:
BartSimpson wrote:
Your heroes, the Soviets, 'liberated' much of Europe from capitalism and they created a worker's paradise that was so wickedly awesome they had to build a wall to keep everyone in.


for the eleventy billionth time, the Soviets are no heroes of mine. their attempts to erase their guilt in acts of mass murder while pretending to be socialists disgusts me. please refer to the Bakunin quote in my signature for clarification.


Of course the Soviets are heroes of yours. You espouse so much of their philosophy that I'm surprised you don't admit to eating borscht with sour cream and washing it down with vodka.

And they did not pretend to be socialists. They absolutely were socialists and just like you would do they forced people to participate in their socialist Utopia.

What it comes down to is force.

I don't have to force anyone to be a capitalist. You, on the other hand, have no choice but to force people into being socialists as you seize their homes, burn their books, and necessarily have to try to kill people like me who will absolutely do their best to kill people like you if you ever try to foist your favorite evil upon us.

See, in my system you're free to live in poverty and bark at the moon about how rotten it is that no one gives you everything for free.

In your system I'm 'free' to work so long as I don't mind you taking everything I work for and then 'redistributing' it first to you and your cronies and then maybe to the proletariat. And if I don't care to be a part of your system I'm not free to go because if I leave then other people might get the idea to leave, too. So you'll be forced to make a prison out of your country in order to bring about your socialist Utopia - which will never happen for the simple reason that it will be populated by people who will always strive for more and who will resent you for stealing everything they earn.

The only upside of your system is that like Nicolae Ceaușescu your own people will one day catch up to you and deliver justice to you like you'll deserve.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 7:52 pm
 


OnTheIce wrote:
It's never the fault of the teachers!

Sure it is. But not this time.

OTI wrote:
It wasn't their fault when the Premier was Bob Rae, Mike Harris, Ernie Eves, Dalton McGuinty and now, Kathleen Wynne.

It was their fault with Rae, not their fault with Harris, was their fault with Eves, was their fault with McGuinty, not their fault now with Wynne.

OTI wrote:
Don't try to tell me that teachers have no other choice but to punish students.

How long should someone continue to work, under past contract's terms, without a contract before they have to start forcing management to negotiate a new deal? What's a fair time to be patient? The ETFO is going on 18 months now, working without a contract; continuing to go to work so as NOT to inconvenience Ontario families, without a fucking contract. How many times has ETFO stalled or delayed negotiations? NONE. How many times management stalled? 41. This one's on management, OTI, not the union. The union wants a deal. Management does not. Any potential work stoppages here aren't "teachers holding kids hostage", it's management holding your kids hostage this time. Jesus, you're smart enough to get this.

OTI wrote:
Essential service designation isn't far away.

With a Liberal provincial majority and a Liberal federal majority? You're fucking kidding, right?


Last edited by Lemmy on Tue Oct 27, 2015 8:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 8:00 pm
 


Just another reason why forced arbitration should be the law of the land as soon as a public sector work stoppage, work-to-rule, or open striking happens. The taxpayers deserve better than to have to put up with two belligerent sides that refuse to budge.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 8:24 pm
 


When has a union ever refused to send a labour dispute to arbitration in Canadian history? Ever?


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 8:30 pm
 


Lemmy wrote:
How long should someone continue to work, under past contract's terms, without a contract before they have to start forcing management to negotiate a new deal? What's a fair time to be patient? The ETFO is going on 18 months now, working without a contract; continuing to go to work so as NOT to inconvenience Ontario families, without a fucking contract. How many times has ETFO stalled or delayed negotiations? NONE. How many times management stalled? 41. This one's on management, OTI, not the union. The union wants a deal. Management does not. Any potential work stoppages here aren't "teachers holding kids hostage", it's management holding your kids hostage this time. Jesus, you're smart enough to get this.


The teachers aren't working out of pure consideration for families. That's just nonsense. They're working because they like their jobs, the pay is good and they have bills to pay. They're still being paid. It's not like there's any hardship on the teachers waiting for a contract. The unions made out pretty good too, having millions put into their pockets due to the delays in bargaining.

The union is being disingenuous with us when they say management won't come back to the table....well, when you put demands on the table and tell management you won't come back unless these terms are met....there's not much bargaining to be had. The union is basically saying "Give us a call when you can meet our demands".

Management doesn't choose to put kids last. Unions make that choice. They make that choice over and over again and lie to the public constantly during the process. The whole "All about the kids" mantra is a running joke. They're not fooling anyone!

Lemmy wrote:
With a Liberal provincial majority and a Liberal federal majority? You're fucking kidding, right?


The Federal Liberals have nothing to do with it....Kathleen's days are numbered. One of these days, Queen's Park will get tired of these games and holding kids hostage will be a thing of the past.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 11:50 pm
 


BartSimpson wrote:
romanP wrote:
BartSimpson wrote:
Your heroes, the Soviets, 'liberated' much of Europe from capitalism and they created a worker's paradise that was so wickedly awesome they had to build a wall to keep everyone in.


for the eleventy billionth time, the Soviets are no heroes of mine. their attempts to erase their guilt in acts of mass murder while pretending to be socialists disgusts me. please refer to the Bakunin quote in my signature for clarification.


Of course the Soviets are heroes of yours. You espouse so much of their philosophy that I'm surprised you don't admit to eating borscht with sour cream and washing it down with vodka.


i don't think you've ever read the philosophy which you attribute to me. Lenin was a capitalist, so was Stalin, so was Mao.


Quote:
And they did not pretend to be socialists.


yes they did. Lenin admits to being a capitalist several times in his own literature. all of the worst atrocities that happened in the Soviet Union are easily comparable to what capitalists have done in the west. actual communist organising was routinely crushed. read about Kronstad, and how Trotsky had a communist rebellion crushed before it went anywhere. citizens who tried to join the Communist Party were executed for being communists.

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They absolutely were socialists and just like you would do they forced people to participate in their socialist Utopia.


have you read anything i've written in this thread? i belong to a union whose principals are based on voluntary, mutual co-operation. membership is voluntary, dues are voluntary, we have yearly elections to make sure that officer positions are changed regularly. i vehemently oppose involuntary union membership and dues payment because it demonstrably contributes to anti-union sentiments, which gives capitalists all the ammunition they need to tear those unions apart and stomp them into the ground. i am also just as opposed to top-down union leadership for the same reasons, and for reasons OnTheIce has mentioned in this thread as well, including strike mandates that no one asked for.

my goals currently consist of building an informal phone tree co-op for under the table computer handyperson work, where those who have the skills necessary to complete tasks are called to get the job done - involvement is entirely voluntary.

what part of any of this sounds to you like forcing anyone to do anything?


Quote:
I don't have to force anyone to be a capitalist. You, on the other hand, have no choice but to force people into being socialists as you seize their homes, burn their books, and necessarily have to try to kill people like me who will absolutely do their best to kill people like you if you ever try to foist your favorite evil upon us.


when have i ever talked about being in favour of any of these things? you don't seem to know what you're talking about. if i ever have to kill a capitalist, it will be an act of self-defense. capitalism is murder. and let's not forget one of the biggest capitalists known to history, Adolf Hitler, loved to seize homes and burn books.


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See, in my system you're free to live in poverty and bark at the moon about how rotten it is that no one gives you everything for free.


poverty is not seen as freedom by many who have to live with it in a capitalist system.

Quote:
In your system I'm 'free' to work so long as I don't mind you taking everything I work for and then 'redistributing' it first to you and your cronies and then maybe to the proletariat.


that's capitalism you're thinking of. try again.

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And if I don't care to be a part of your system I'm not free to go because if I leave then other people might get the idea to leave, too.


again, capitalism. who wants to beef up arms at the borders and build a wall between Canada and the United States? one of the biggest capitalists of our time, Donald Trump. who has manipulated the global economy so that labour can move freely but workers can't? capitalists, namely the leaders of the G7 and G20 nations, all of those parties who have signed onto neo-liberal capitalist trade deals such as NAFTA and TPP, both of which remove liability for capitalists and make it more difficult for citizens to be free.

Quote:
So you'll be forced to make a prison out of your country in order to bring about your socialist Utopia


the nation with the world's largest prison population is also the same one that regularly gushes about the virtues of capitalism. you get one guess which country that is, and you can't get it wrong because you live there.

oh hey, here's a neat comparison. the United States is using more prison labour than ever before, in private for-profit prisons. which other union of states did virtually the same thing until 1990?

Quote:
which will never happen for the simple reason that it will be populated by people who will always strive for more and who will resent you for stealing everything they earn.


again, that's capitalism you're thinking of.

Quote:
The only upside of your system is that like Nicolae Ceaușescu your own people will one day catch up to you and deliver justice to you like you'll deserve.


you don't even know who "my own people" are, but i can tell you that i organise with them regularly, and they are most definitely not out to get me because for the most part i don't hang out with people who are a hair short of being my enemy. we're mostly all on the same page, and we all agree that capitalism is a crime against humanity because we've studied what has happened to people who fought the capitalist class, and how much of their own blood was spilled before they achieved any victory. if you need a good example of that, read about the Ludlow Massacre.

PS. i'm taking a wild guess here, but it seems like you think George Orwell's 1984 is a history book. it's a fictionalised version of what was happening in the Soviet Union at the time, for sure, but you do need to realise that was not the only book George Orwell ever wrote, and Homage to Catelonia is probably a better book if you're looking for genuine history as it is a personal account of his experience fighting fascists in the Spanish civl war, where he was an officer with the Workers' Party of Marxist Unification, an anti-Stalinist communist party. he later lamented not fighting with the anarchists.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 12:15 am
 


OnTheIce wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
OnTheIce wrote:
Teachers shouldn't be allowed to hold the education of our kids hostage while they work out a contract.

Teachers? This time? No. Teachers worked the entire 2014-2015 year without a contract (except for the short walkout of a few boards at the end of last year). No, this time the shit ain't on the teachers. Put the blame where it lies: with the government and the boards. Teachers have accommodated the system by bargaining in good faith and continuing to work without a contract for over a year. This should have been dealt with before LAST SEPTEMBER and the blame for whatever work-stoppages are ahead isn't the teachers'.


It's never the fault of the teachers!

It wasn't their fault when the Premier was Bob Rae, Mike Harris, Ernie Eves, Dalton McGuinty and now, Kathleen Wynne.


and it will never be their fault, because it is not their fault. teachers did not invent capitalism nor the wage system, nor do they uphold it.

but it's easy to make it look that way when the scabby union builds no solidarity with parents, students, and the rest of society. if they had done that, we would all be on the teachers' picket line, and probably coming up with anti-capitalist solutions for public education while doing so.

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Essential service designation isn't far away.


that would be no different than "right to work" legislation. fyi, that was Hitler's idea first.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 12:24 am
 


Lemmy wrote:
[
How long should someone continue to work, under past contract's terms, without a contract before they have to start forcing management to negotiate a new deal?


it would make more sense if the union refused to sign a contract in the first place. that would be some good militant unionism, and it has produced positive results in other trades. bargaining with the employing class is a losing strategy. we don't just want a piece of the pie, we want the whole damn bakery.

Quote:
What's a fair time to be patient? The ETFO is going on 18 months now, working without a contract; continuing to go to work so as NOT to inconvenience Ontario families, without a fucking contract. How many times has ETFO stalled or delayed negotiations? NONE. How many times management stalled? 41. This one's on management, OTI, not the union. The union wants a deal. Management does not. Any potential work stoppages here aren't "teachers holding kids hostage", it's management holding your kids hostage this time. Jesus, you're smart enough to get this.


it seems the problem is not a lack of a contract, but management. don't you think it would make more sense if teachers organised and owned their workplace, without top-down management getting in the way?


Quote:
OTI wrote:
Essential service designation isn't far away.

With a Liberal provincial majority and a Liberal federal majority? You're fucking kidding, right?


it's not at all unfathomable. Kathleen Wynne has already passed back-to-work legislation on other industries, and that is not a whole lot different. Dalton McGuinty did it too, iirc.


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