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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 8:52 am
 


romanP wrote:
let's see how many squares Bart can ping before this thread is dead!
Image


Odd that "Fuck off and die!" wasn't on there. :wink:


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 8:54 am
 


romanP wrote:
let me do a little experiment.

i'm the president of the United States.

do you believe me?


No.

Because you've never even once mentioned your golf handicap.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 9:00 am
 


BartSimpson wrote:
romanP wrote:
let me do a little experiment.

i'm the president of the United States.

do you believe me?


No.

Because you've never even once mentioned your golf handicap.


right. so if you don't believe me when i tell you i'm the president, why do you take it at face value when capitalists make boogeymen out of other capitalists simply because they told you the other capitalists were communists?

the capitalist is relying on your ignorance of what both capitalism and communism actually are, and exploiting it for his own gain. this is also how politicians win elections and become president of the United States, or prime minister of Canada. they play with your emotions and create heightened feelings of fear or euphoria while making all kinds of false promises while deals have already been struck with the employing class.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 9:02 am
 


BartSimpson wrote:

Odd that "Fuck off and die!" wasn't on there. :wink:


struck a nerve, have i?


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 9:06 am
 


romanP wrote:
BartSimpson wrote:

Odd that "Fuck off and die!" wasn't on there. :wink:


struck a nerve, have i?


No, but you do make my hemorrhoids itch.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 9:58 am
 


romanP wrote:
the capitalist is relying on your ignorance of what both capitalism and communism actually are


I know what communism is.

"From each according to his ability to each according to his need."

Meaning if I can do the work of two people I will and then the fruit of my labor will be used to support someone who can't or won't work.

It also means that some ratfuck bastard who envies what I have will use the force of government to take it away from me instead of emulating what I do and earning it for himself.

Ultimately the problem is that you have to force people to participate in communism.

And that's where I take umbrage at the notion. See, you betray your intentions because you don't just advocate for collective economics you set up your own bogeymen of the 'greedy capitalists' and you promulgate the idea that if only you could steal their wealth from them and redistribute it that the whole world would shit roses and unicorns.

It doesn't work that way and it never will because no matter what system of communism you try to impose you'll have to impose it and someone will always have to be in charge and they'll inevitably abuse their power for their own ends.

Communism in the USSR started out with some lofty ideals but soon enough the reality of opposition set in and millions had to die so a few could enjoy fancy dachas and Zil limousines and their own private lanes of traffic in Moscow.

Even the Castro brothers in Cuba are known to be billionaires.

True communism with decentralized governance will never happen because some son of a bitch will always want to be in charge and have a fucking title. It's just the way people are.

To quote Winston Churchill there's no worse system of government than Democracy...except for everything else humanity has ever tried.

And democracies inevitably gravitate to free markets and capitalism where people get to keep the fruit of their labors and their intellectual creativity.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 11:45 am
 


BartSimpson wrote:
romanP wrote:
the capitalist is relying on your ignorance of what both capitalism and communism actually are


I know what communism is.

"From each according to his ability to each according to his need."

Meaning if I can do the work of two people I will and then the fruit of my labor will be used to support someone who can't or won't work.


nope, you're thinking of capitalism again. that statement means that you do the work you can do, and receive the full product of your labour, nothing more and nothing less. in a true communist society, there is no such thing as profit. profit is the game of capitalism, and profit is the extraction of surplus value from labour, which is what you just described.

in the USSR, who profited, and who suffered? same game: capitalism.


Quote:
It also means that some ratfuck bastard who envies what I have will use the force of government to take it away from me instead of emulating what I do and earning it for himself.


nope, that's capitalism. try again.

Quote:
Ultimately the problem is that you have to force people to participate in communism.


you're still thinking of capitalism. communism, socialism, anarchy, and voluntary, mutual co-operation are all synonymous with each other. if you have ever helped a neighbour paint the fence and they gave you a prior agreed upon payment in return, in whatever form that may take, be it money or a meal, that is communism.

labour is entitled to all it creates.

please read more carefully, i provided other examples in the post you're replying to here. i also asked you how my activities and beliefs are in any way forceful, and you haven't answered that question.

Quote:
And that's where I take umbrage at the notion. See, you betray your intentions because you don't just advocate for collective economics you set up your own bogeymen of the 'greedy capitalists' and you promulgate the idea that if only you could steal their wealth from them and redistribute it that the whole world would shit roses and unicorns.


capitalists are greedy. there is a massive body of evidence that this is true. unions would not need to exist, and the blood of union organisers would never have been spilled if capitalists were not greedy bastards. it is they who have stolen our wealth, and it is us who must reclaim it.

the thing you are describing is redistribution of wealth within a capitalist system, where inequality is necessary and thus so is redistribution of wealth so that the bottom of society doesn't collapse and fall out, as it did in the 1930s.

tell me if you've heard this song before. its lyrics weren't invented out of nowhere for pop radio, they came from real struggle - working people losing their lives to capitalist greed and violence:

Quote:
When the union's inspiration through the workers' blood shall run,
There can be no power greater anywhere beneath the sun;
Yet what force on earth is weaker than the feeble strength of one,
But the union makes us strong.

Is there aught we hold in common with the greedy parasite,
Who would lash us into serfdom and would crush us with his might?
Is there anything left to us but to organize and fight?
For the union makes us strong.

All the world that's owned by idle drones is ours and ours alone.
We have laid the wide foundations; built it skyward stone by stone.
It is ours, not to slave in, but to master and to own.
While the union makes us strong.

They have taken untold millions that they never toiled to earn,
But without our brain and muscle not a single wheel can turn.
We can break their haughty power, gain our freedom when we learn
That the union makes us strong.

In our hands is placed a power greater than their hoarded gold,
Greater than the might of armies, multiplied a thousand-fold.
We can bring to birth a new world from the ashes of the old
For the union makes us strong.

Solidarity forever
Solidarity forever
Solidarity forever
For the union makes us strong!


Quote:
It doesn't work that way and it never will because no matter what system of communism you try to impose you'll have to impose it and someone will always have to be in charge and they'll inevitably abuse their power for their own ends.


for the sleight hundredth time, i am not interested in imposing any system on anyone. what part of voluntary, mutual co-operation are you having trouble understanding?

Quote:
Communism in the USSR started out with some lofty ideals but soon enough the reality of opposition set in and millions had to die so a few could enjoy fancy dachas and Zil limousines and their own private lanes of traffic in Moscow.


take that bingo card and put a mark on it.

you're talking about capitalism again. take note that CEOs of corporations do the same thing with their billions, collected from surplus value of exploited labour.

Quote:
Even the Castro brothers in Cuba are known to be billionaires.


because they are capitalists, barely different from Bill Gates or Elon Musk.

Quote:
True communism with decentralized governance will never happen because some son of a bitch will always want to be in charge and have a fucking title. It's just the way people are.


it has happened, and it is still happening, and it will happen again. the Kurdish Workers' Party are building a society based on voluntary, mutual co-operation that puts the needs of the most oppressed first. they are the "boots on the ground" fighting Daesh in northern Iraq. the Zapatistas are doing the same, they are the Indigenous people of Mexico, largely Mayan, and always being harassed and murdered by the capitalist Mexican government. the CNT-FAI tried, and only failed because they were crushed by Franco. those who participated in the Paris commune tried, and only failed because they were crushed by the French government. the communists in Kronstad tried and only failed because Trotsky sent in tanks to kill them all.

put another mark on your bingo card.

Quote:
To quote Winston Churchill there's no worse system of government than Democracy...except for everything else humanity has ever tried.


Winston Churchill is not exactly a outstanding example of a person who fought inequality. in fact, he is an example of that inequality.

Quote:
And democracies inevitably gravitate to free markets and capitalism where people get to keep the fruit of their labors and their intellectual creativity.


that's three marks on your bingo card.

this is not actually born out anywhere in history. it is a fabrication that capitalists like for people to believe in so that they don't question capitalism and say silly, ignorant things about it so that they don't realise a better world is possible and never realise they are being oppressed, grow a spine, and fight back.


Last edited by romanP on Wed Oct 28, 2015 11:52 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 11:49 am
 


Image

:idea:


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 11:55 am
 


romanP wrote:
in a true communist society, there is no such thing as profit. profit is the game of capitalism, and profit is the extraction of surplus value from labour, which is what you just described.


romanP wrote:
if you have ever helped a neighbour paint the fence and they gave you a prior agreed upon payment in return, in whatever form that may take, be it money or a meal, that is communism.


Wait, what?

There is no profit in Communism, unless it takes the form of an agreed upon form of compensation, including money - and then it's Communism?


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 12:28 pm
 


voluntarily agreed upon compensation for mutual aid is not profit. both parties co-operated to paint the fence, one asked for help from the other and agreed to pay for the labour in some form or another.

profit is the extraction of surplus value from labour, and it is how your boss is able to drive the latest Fiat while you still have to take the bus to work, no matter how hard you work your ass off trying to get ahead. if the neighbour was going to profit from painting the fence, he would pay for the labour and then claim that he did all of the work and claim the fence for himself.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 12:49 pm
 


DrCaleb wrote:

Wait, what?


You do realize that you are arguing with a paranoid schizophrenic about whether or not the voices he is hearing are real or not.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2015 5:43 am
 


.


Last edited by romanP on Thu Oct 29, 2015 6:06 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2015 5:45 am
 


romanP wrote:
voluntarily agreed upon compensation for mutual aid is not profit. both parties co-operated to paint the fence, one asked for help from the other and agreed to pay for the labour in some form or another.


romanP wrote:
profit is the extraction of surplus value from labour,


Wait, what? Voluntarily agreeing to be compensated for surplus labour is and isn't profit? How can it be both? If you don't open the lid, the cat is both dead and alive at the same time?


romanP wrote:
and it is how your boss is able to drive the latest Fiat while you still have to take the bus to work, no matter how hard you work your ass off trying to get ahead. if the neighbour was going to profit from painting the fence, he would pay for the labour and then claim that he did all of the work and claim the fence for himself.


My boss is the head of one of the largest IT consulting firms in the western world, and drives a Cadillac. ;) I take the bus to work, despite having several vehicles of my own because it's the responsible thing to do. :P You assume too much!

If the neighbor is agreeing to pay you for helping paint the fence, then he's compensating you for surplus labour, and you are earning profit from that labour. That's Capitalism.

ShepherdsDog wrote:
You do realize that you are arguing with a paranoid schizophrenic about whether or not the voices he is hearing are real or not.


No, I'm arguing with his voices. He's just along for the ride. :twisted:


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2015 6:00 am
 


DrCaleb wrote:
romanP wrote:
voluntarily agreed upon compensation for mutual aid is not profit. both parties co-operated to paint the fence, one asked for help from the other and agreed to pay for the labour in some form or another.

romanP wrote:
profit is the extraction of surplus value from labour,


Wait, what? Voluntarily agreeing to be compensated for surplus labour is and isn't profit? How can it be both? If you don't open the lid, the cat is both dead and alive at the same time?


you really don't know what you're talking about. a synonym for "surplus labour" is "unemployment".

Quote:
romanP wrote:
and it is how your boss is able to drive the latest Fiat while you still have to take the bus to work, no matter how hard you work your ass off trying to get ahead. if the neighbour was going to profit from painting the fence, he would pay for the labour and then claim that he did all of the work and claim the fence for himself.


My boss is the head of one of the largest IT consulting firms in the western world, and drives a Cadillac. ;) I take the bus to work, despite having several vehicles of my own because it's the responsible thing to do. :P You assume too much!


i don't own any cars, because it's the responsible thing to do. i couldn't afford one anyways, on the wages i've been making. in my last regular job, my boss drove a Fiat and would he give any workers a drive to work? nope.

Quote:
If the neighbor is agreeing to pay you for helping paint the fence, then he's compensating you for surplus labour, and you are earning profit from that labour. That's Capitalism.


nope. none of the words you are saying mean what you think they mean.

surplus labour is unemployed.

profit is surplus value extracted from labour. it is based on an arbitrary value attached to a unit of time. all other value that comes from the work done in that unit of time is surplus, and extracted as profit.

if i help my neighbour paint their fence, and we agree on a payment in advance, then i am receiving the full product of my labour. no profit is made because my neighbour only gains a painted fence, and i only gain what we agreed to without coercion in advance. this is what is called mutual aid.

if my neighbour were to profit from my labour, they would take a portion of the payment we agreed to in advance, and then claim they did all of the work. that would be capitalism.

Quote:
ShepherdsDog wrote:
You do realize that you are arguing with a paranoid schizophrenic about whether or not the voices he is hearing are real or not.


No, I'm arguing with his voices. He's just along for the ride. :twisted:


you can also go fuck a rake.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2015 6:35 am
 


romanP wrote:
DrCaleb wrote:

Wait, what? Voluntarily agreeing to be compensated for surplus labour is and isn't profit? How can it be both? If you don't open the lid, the cat is both dead and alive at the same time?


you really don't know what you're talking about. a synonym for "surplus labour" is "unemployment".


Leisure time is not 'unemployment'.

romanP wrote:
i don't own any cars, because it's the responsible thing to do. i couldn't afford one anyways, on the wages i've been making. in my last regular job, my boss drove a Fiat and would he give any workers a drive to work? nope.


I require my own vehicle, as mass transit is sorely lacking where I live. And, to race cars, you must first have a race car.

Your loss.

romanP wrote:
Quote:
If the neighbor is agreeing to pay you for helping paint the fence, then he's compensating you for surplus labour, and you are earning profit from that labour. That's Capitalism.


nope. none of the words you are saying mean what you think they mean.

surplus labour is unemployed.


Nope. Again, helping your neighbor paint a fence isn't 'employment', it's what you do on a Saturday to help your neighbour out. You trade some of your leisure time for money. That's profit.

You trade time in the lawn chair with some quality adult beverages to help your neighbour out, and he he gives you some money to acquire more adult beverages. It's also called 'not being a dick'.

romanP wrote:
profit is surplus value extracted from labour. it is based on an arbitrary value attached to a unit of time. all other value that comes from the work done in that unit of time is surplus, and extracted as profit.

if i help my neighbour paint their fence, and we agree on a payment in advance, then i am receiving the full product of my labour. no profit is made because my neighbour only gains a painted fence, and i only gain what we agreed to without coercion in advance. this is what is called mutual aid.

if my neighbour were to profit from my labour, they would take a portion of the payment we agreed to in advance, and then claim they did all of the work. that would be capitalism.


And your neighbour did receive payment for you painting the fence. He exchanged value for labour, value he otherwise would have paid someone else, or would have to spend his own time painting the fence. Just like you said earlier - "one asked for help from the other and agreed to pay for the labour in some form or another".

Capitalism! Profit from hard work!

romanP wrote:
Quote:
ShepherdsDog wrote:
You do realize that you are arguing with a paranoid schizophrenic about whether or not the voices he is hearing are real or not.


No, I'm arguing with his voices. He's just along for the ride. :twisted:


you can also go fuck a rake.


I don't like them sleazy, but I'll see what I can do. ;)


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