[Blue_Nose]

Robair wrote:

She says this is the first generation that was raised with no religion. Problem children of the past had gone to Sunday school and church when they were younger, then quit and rebelled or what have you. But she said this generation had never been taught the ten commandments etc. So that's her theory, and she's in the business of problem children. Has been for quite some time.

That's a lack of proper parenting - I was raised with absolutely no religion and I'm in many cases more ethical than my religious counterparts who had less parental involvement in their lives.

There's no indication that it's religion that makes people good - you could as easily pin those negative issues on the increase in watching television, or rock music.

[Eisensapper]

Robair wrote:

I'm not saying "the church is the answer" or preaching at anybody, but I am countering attacks on religions like the Catholic Church. You can't go wrong with the ten commandments, not a bad set of rules to teach a youngster.

You shall have no other gods before me - Umm ya dont think we need that one

You shall not make for yourself an idol - Ahah tell that to Canadian Idol, but its kinda relevent, I think it was refering to bronze statues of other gods.

You shall not make wrongful use of the name of your God - God Damnit! Oh well I guess Im going to hell, I can see how this helps troubled kids.

Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy - So far its 1-4 against needing the 10 commandments. Nova Scotica tried to keep this one, it didnt stick. Oh and the punishment for this one in the old testement was getting stoned, and not the fun kind.

Honor your father and mother - Thats just common sense, and if you need a book to tell you that you are in trouble.

You shall not murder - Again common sense, don't kill people it's not nice and its not moral. Again the old testment contradicts itself when God murders countless scores of people. People were also given props by God when they murdered sinners.

You shall not commit adultery - Rape was ok though in the old testment, as long as she wasn't married, in the eyes of the lord.

You shall not steal - Another one along the same lines as the last 4. Something you should be able to figure out without the church.

You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor - Again...

You shall not covet your neighbor's wife - Kinda along the same lines as before, but again I dont see how this would apply to kids.

So lets see, 4 out of 10 commandments apply to teens. Those 4 can be found in almost any society, I am tempted to just say any society but Im sure there are some out there that go for swingers. Really though I cant see how relevent the 10 commandments are. Maybe the 4 or 5 commandments but then thats what they could be called, the 4 or 5 relevent commandmets. Just not as catchy I guess.

[romanP]

tritium wrote:

Bacardi4206 wrote:

It's about time somebody started a movement for this, religion and politics do not miss. Thus the failure of the middle east. Go and take a trip to Saudi Arabia, and they are a purely religious run country. Religion is there politics basicly. There country is shit.

Personally, a dude who believes in religion and believes that the end of the world is a good thing because god will beam them up during it or however it went that has the power to launch nuclear weapons is not something I feel safe about.

Your religion and how you live your life is very important.

Yes, my religion is important to me. Keep me out of yours.

Quote:

You're faith plays in your policy, towards abortion, gay marriage...and so on.

Yes, I have faith that abortion is an individual choice and none of your business, and that gay marriage is a choice between two consenting adults and also none of your business.

[romanP]

Zipperfish wrote:

That said there is no freedom "from" religion, nor should there be. There is no right not be subject to the teachings of Christ or the mysteries of Scientology. Nor should there be. Such a right would inordinately infringe upon freedom of expression.

There is no freedom from religion on the street, but there should be freedom from religion in government. Laws should be based on reason, not on miracles and supernatural myths.

[lily]

Eisensapper wrote:

Robair wrote:

I'm not saying "the church is the answer" or preaching at anybody, but I am countering attacks on religions like the Catholic Church. You can't go wrong with the ten commandments, not a bad set of rules to teach a youngster.

You shall have no other gods before me - Umm ya dont think we need that one

You shall not make for yourself an idol - Ahah tell that to Canadian Idol, but its kinda relevent, I think it was refering to bronze statues of other gods.

You shall not make wrongful use of the name of your God - God Damnit! Oh well I guess Im going to hell, I can see how this helps troubled kids.

Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy - So far its 1-4 against needing the 10 commandments. Nova Scotica tried to keep this one, it didnt stick. Oh and the punishment for this one in the old testement was getting stoned, and not the fun kind.

Honor your father and mother - Thats just common sense, and if you need a book to tell you that you are in trouble.

You shall not murder - Again common sense, don't kill people it's not nice and its not moral. Again the old testment contradicts itself when God murders countless scores of people. People were also given props by God when they murdered sinners.

You shall not commit adultery - Rape was ok though in the old testment, as long as she wasn't married, in the eyes of the lord.

You shall not steal - Another one along the same lines as the last 4. Something you should be able to figure out without the church.

You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor - Again...

You shall not covet your neighbor's wife - Kinda along the same lines as before, but again I dont see how this would apply to kids.

So lets see, 4 out of 10 commandments apply to teens. Those 4 can be found in almost any society, I am tempted to just say any society but Im sure there are some out there that go for swingers. Really though I cant see how relevent the 10 commandments are. Maybe the 4 or 5 commandments but then thats what they could be called, the 4 or 5 relevent commandmets. Just not as catchy I guess.

The same could be said of the Criminal Code.

Common sense... something you should be able to figure out without the help of the government.

[Zipperfish]

romanP wrote:

Zipperfish wrote:

That said there is no freedom "from" religion, nor should there be. There is no right not be subject to the teachings of Christ or the mysteries of Scientology. Nor should there be. Such a right would inordinately infringe upon freedom of expression.

There is no freedom from religion on the street, but there should be freedom from religion in government. Laws should be based on reason, not on miracles and supernatural myths.

Yes and no. Separation of church and state is a good idea, just based ont he fact that many countries that have done this are relatively prosperous adn free, and many countries that haven't are poor and tyrannical.

Laws are not, however, necessarily based on reason. They are codified morality, and our morality is overwhelmingly Judeo-Christian. Of course, you could always argue that good morals are good reason--the prohibition against murder (killing without permission from the state) is almost universal, and it can be shown that where there is no such law, societies quickly break down.

Morals are subject to Darwinism like organisms are. Civilizations with "bad" morals tend to get weeded out.

[Robair]

Blue_Nose wrote:

Robair wrote:

She says this is the first generation that was raised with no religion. Problem children of the past had gone to Sunday school and church when they were younger, then quit and rebelled or what have you. But she said this generation had never been taught the ten commandments etc. So that's her theory, and she's in the business of problem children. Has been for quite some time.

That's a lack of proper parenting - I was raised with absolutely no religion and I'm in many cases more ethical than my religious counterparts who had less parental involvement in their lives.

I agree, lack of proper parenting for sure. So why are the genereations, according to her, getting worse?

Blue_Nose wrote:

There's no indication that it's religion that makes people good - you could as easily pin those negative issues on the increase in watching television, or rock music.

There's no indication that it's rock music that makes people bad - you could as easily pin those negative issues on the decrease in Christian influence.

'Shrug' makes as much sense to me...

[sandorski]

Just check the Divorce rates of Evangelicals vs the rest of Society in the US. Then come back and discuss lack of Religious Values.

[Eisensapper]

lily wrote:

The same could be said of the Criminal Code.

Common sense... something you should be able to figure out without the help of the government.

Big problem with your statment though, you can change the Criminal Code. I would love to see the Chruch change the 10 commandments.

[Blue_Nose]

Robair wrote:

There's no indication that it's rock music that makes people bad - you could as easily pin those negative issues on the decrease in Christian influence.

'Shrug' makes as much sense to me...

My point wasn't that either rock music or Christianity was affecting people's behaviour - it's the issue of correlation vs causation.

I'd say if anything can be attributed to religion, it's that people aren't dragging their kids to church as much as they used to. People probably still believe the same things, and it's not what the preacher's saying that they're necessarily lacking, but if they don't have that interaction with their community that you get from going to church on Sunday, they'll feel less attached to those around them, including their family.

The fact that parents don't bother going to church with their children is more an indication of the decline in parenting that I mentioned before, rather than a drastic change in religious beliefs.

So I'd agree that a decline in church-going is reducing community awareness and spirit, causing the problems you described, but there's nothing inherent to religion itself that makes a person more or less good.

I've personally got no problem with becoming involved in church activities (like the "faith based" Habitat for Humanity), since it's the spirit of the activities themselves that I can respect, not all the nonsense that goes along with the beliefs. I'd rather see that people are doing good things to be valuable members of their community, not just to get in God's good book so they get treated nicely after they die.

(updated at 1:20pm)

[romanP]

Robair wrote:

Blue_Nose wrote:

Robair wrote:

She says this is the first generation that was raised with no religion. Problem children of the past had gone to Sunday school and church when they were younger, then quit and rebelled or what have you. But she said this generation had never been taught the ten commandments etc. So that's her theory, and she's in the business of problem children. Has been for quite some time.

That's a lack of proper parenting - I was raised with absolutely no religion and I'm in many cases more ethical than my religious counterparts who had less parental involvement in their lives.

I agree, lack of proper parenting for sure. So why are the genereations, according to her, getting worse?

Because the parents are more irresponsible. If they were responsible parents, they'd be better parents. Longer work weeks, television and conspicuous consumerism all have a lot to do with this, not so much religion. We didn't all used to have the economic freedom to buy a TV for every room in the house to use as a substitute babysitter.

[Robair]

romanP wrote:

Because the parents are more irresponsible. If they were responsible parents, they'd be better parents. Longer work weeks, television and conspicuous consumerism all have a lot to do with this, not so much religion. We didn't all used to have the economic freedom to buy a TV for every room in the house to use as a substitute babysitter.

If you take out "not so much religion" your post sounds just like a sermon I've heard in church on sunday.

[Eisensapper]

Robair wrote:

romanP wrote:

Because the parents are more irresponsible. If they were responsible parents, they'd be better parents. Longer work weeks, television and conspicuous consumerism all have a lot to do with this, not so much religion. We didn't all used to have the economic freedom to buy a TV for every room in the house to use as a substitute babysitter.

If you take out "not so much religion" your post sounds just like a sermon I've heard in church on sunday.

Im guessing the moral of the sermon was stay home with the kids and pray more...

[BartSimpson]

Eisensapper wrote:

Seems over due for something like this to happen in the states. The fundies seems to be getting louder and louder over the years and need to be put back in line.

Is this the kind of line you have in mind?

[Eisensapper]

BartSimpson wrote:

Eisensapper wrote:

Seems over due for something like this to happen in the states. The fundies seems to be getting louder and louder over the years and need to be put back in line.

Is this the kind of line you have in mind?

Yes you got it right Bart, I want to personally line up all theists make them dig their own graves and then exterminate them. Hell you know what lets have the mothers clutch their babies to their chests so we can kill two theists with one bullet.

Statements like yours make me sick. To think you can try relate the extermination of 9 million (a conservative estimate) Jews to a discussion on a Secular Government, makes me feel utter contempt for you. What in your right mind you let you think its ok to compare one of the darkest moments in human history to the right to keep church and state separate? There is a reason why people follow Godwin's Law, you fuck.