[BartSimpson]

DerbyX wrote:

BartSimpson wrote:

DerbyX wrote:

Was it OK for Georgia to invade Ossettia?

Actually, yes, it was. Ossetia is Georgian territory and Georgia has the right to assert sovereignty over it just the same as Yugoslavia (Serbia) had the right to assert sovereignty over Bosnia, Croatia, and Kosovo.

A matter of opinion which many do not share.

I guess you are by default agreeing entirely with me that we had no right or justification to invade Iraq or Afghanistan.

Hmm. I agree with you on Iraq in principle but disagree with you on Afghanistan as their government (the Taliban) openly admitted to aiding and abetting the folks who carried off the 9/11 attacks. The Taliban acknowledged complicity in an act of war on the USA and they really did not expect us to do anything about it. Their mistake.

Iraq...well, someone had to make an example of Hussein so no one else would get the bright idea to pull some of the BS he did. A benefit of the Iraq wars was that the Russians and Chinese were humbled by how fast the very best of their military tech was overcome by the US forces. And when Georgia is properly armed to defend their territory the Russians will have to deal with the fuzzy end of the lollipop once more.

And the Russians, I am sure, are reconsidering their bid to hold the 2014 Olympics in Sochi - just a couple klicks from occupied Georgia.

[DerbyX]

BartSimpson wrote:

Hmm. I agree with you on Iraq in principle but disagree with you on Afghanistan as their government (the Taliban) openly admitted to aiding and abetting the folks who carried off the 9/11 attacks. The Taliban acknowledged complicity in an act of war on the USA and they really did not expect us to do anything about it. Their mistake.

Iraq...well, someone had to make an example of Hussein so no one else would get the bright idea to pull some of the BS he did. A benefit of the Iraq wars was that the Russians and Chinese were humbled by how fast the very best of their military tech was overcome by the US forces. And when Georgia is properly armed to defend their territory the Russians will have to deal with the fuzzy end of the lollipop once more.

And the Russians, I am sure, are reconsidering their bid to hold the 2014 Olympics in Sochi - just a couple klicks from occupied Georgia.

In principle? Does that mean you won't admit it in public?

Hang on. massive CFL finish.

[Tricks]

Congrats on 10 G posts Derb.

[ShepherdsDog]

BartSimpson wrote:

DerbyX wrote:

Was it OK for Georgia to invade Ossettia?

Actually, yes, it was. Ossetia is Georgian territory and Georgia has the right to assert sovereignty over it just the same as Yugoslavia (Serbia) had the right to assert sovereignty over Bosnia, Croatia, and Kosovo.

I have to disagree with this Bart. I've stated clearly in other posts that the people of these breakaway regions wished to remain Russian and didn't want to be part of an independent Georgia. The analogy I used was, it would be the same as certain parts of Quebec wishing to remain Canadian if Quebec ever unilaterally declared independence. Canadian troops would be obligated to defend these people if Quebec tried to force them into a seperate Quebec.

Mind you, I beginning to think that these are merely Russians of convenience, and should the shit hit the fan in Dagestan or Chechnya, the Abkhazians and Ossetians will side with their Muslim brothers against the infidel Russians.

[DerbyX]

BartSimpson wrote:

Hmm. I agree with you on Iraq in principle but disagree with you on Afghanistan as their government (the Taliban) openly admitted to aiding and abetting the folks who carried off the 9/11 attacks. The Taliban acknowledged complicity in an act of war on the USA and they really did not expect us to do anything about it. Their mistake.

Iraq...well, someone had to make an example of Hussein so no one else would get the bright idea to pull some of the BS he did. A benefit of the Iraq wars was that the Russians and Chinese were humbled by how fast the very best of their military tech was overcome by the US forces. And when Georgia is properly armed to defend their territory the Russians will have to deal with the fuzzy end of the lollipop once more.

And the Russians, I am sure, are reconsidering their bid to hold the 2014 Olympics in Sochi - just a couple klicks from occupied Georgia.

What a game.

Thanks Tricks!

OK.

If you agree on Iraq then you agree that the US has set itself up for righteous retaliation because they are even more guilty as the Taliban is.

Why any American supports wasting trillions in a war to "help" people who turn support the very religion that might threaten your way of life while decent Americans cannot afford healthcare and die because of it is beyond me.

Our "security" isn't better. We face punitive measures at each others borders, pay loads more for flights becasue of increased security costs and have adopted an almost paranoid mentality.

All because of 50 guys in a cave.

You posted about how the west beat the USSR by making them go broke trying to counter US programs.

Did you ever consider that they are sitting back hoping the same thing for us as we drain so many resources into wars that will never end on the deck of a battleship?

In Canada Harper just cancelled a very important naval purchase, broke his promise on a few more and hasn't done anything more to increase the military to the point where the military minded people want it all becasue (they say) we have more pressing buisness in the Stan.

We are treading water in terms of arctic territoriality because we are wasting money for a war that will never be won for allies that are apparently raping children at will under our very noses (and these are the people we trained).

Madness. Time to focus on our society and improving it and let others sort theirs out for themselves.

/rant.

[Scape]

ShepherdsDog wrote:

Mind you, I beginning to think that these are merely Russians of convenience, and should the shit hit the fan in Dagestan or Chechnya, the Abkhazians and Ossetians will side with their Muslim brothers against the infidel Russians.

Of course they are Russians of convenience and Russian peacekeepers were simply an occupying force but on the behest of the US Georgia invaded hoping Russia would simply fold. Their bluff got called and Georgia got nailed on a foolish gambit. The Georgians thought that if the Russians did not fold that they would be able to embarrass the Russians so badly internationally that they would be forced to withdraw all peacekeepers from the region. That backfired too and now we have the Russians looking to overthrow from within the Georgian despot in the trappings of being a leader of an oppressed democratic fledgling NATO member nation. So there are Russians of convenience but so to are there Georgians of convenience.

[herbie]

NATO fucked up... big time.
We encouraged Russia to democratize and then rushed every breakaway state into our 'camp' as fast as we could.
The average Ivan saw us (or fells like we did) rush weapons to their doorsteps, tell them how to run their own country and turn former allies into enemies.
It's like we showed them everything bad the Commies warned about the USA was true!

There's an interesting take in The Tyee of how Bush snoozed, and the Iraq war that drove oil prices up instead of down actually funded Russia's ability to restore some face:
http://thetyee.ca/Views/2008/08/26/NATO/

Don't dismiss it outright, the author makes some pretty valid points.

[Mr_Canada]

...I like Russia.

[lily]

DerbyX wrote:

All because of 50 guys in a cave.

I thought it was because of 3000 people in the Twin Towers, 17 sailors on the USS Cole and other assorted attacks.

[herbie]

3,067 then that sidetracked and consumed GW from the 6,000,000 person big picture for 7 years....

Remember that other presidents fought a war, went to the moon, stepped back from nuclear armageddon and fixed the economy all at the same time.

Bush Sr. showed some respect and even Russian cooperation in Iraq Round One.

Russian advice would've been welcome in the quagmire of Afghanistan.

[Wada]

"Iraq...well, someone had to make an example of Hussein so no one else would get the bright idea to pull some of the BS he did."

That has to be one of the best reasons for starving a nation of innocents and then bombing the living daylights out of them and then occupying them for how long exactly. Then there is the cost to the American public for this advertising fiasco.
Fiscally conservative somebody's ass.

[sandorski]

We probably should have disband or at least scaled back NATO after the collapse of the Soviet Union. It's reason to exist passed.

[Scape]

The need for NATO is still there but it has become a victim of its own success. With that will come new opportunities.

Russian general wounded in Georgia's rebel region

Now that was just plain clumsy. You just don't go in with armored columns without proper air support. Mind you the Georgians were incompetent as well by failing to block the only tunnel Russia had to move in heavy armor.