[Calumny]

[QUOTE]jesse, a bit of clarification might be useful at this point: given that insulting people is unacceptable, would it be acceptable to insult actions or ideas? For example, if there were a Fifty-Four-Forty Party that advocated cession to the USA, and a poster who voted for a FFFP candidate in the last election advocating voting for the FFFP in the next election, which of the following posts would be acceptable, and which would be unacceptable?<br /> <br /> 1. You’re stupid for having voted for the FFFP!<br /> 2. You’re stupid for voting for the FFFP!<br /> 3. You’re stupid for wanting to vote for the FFFP!<br /> 4. It’s stupid to have voted for the FFFP!<br /> 5. It’s stupid to vote for the FFFP!<br /> 6. It’s stupid to want to vote for the FFFP!<br /> 7. The FFFP is stupid!<br /> 8. Members of the FFFP are stupid!<br /> 9. The FFFP platform is stupid![/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> If I may.<br /> <br /> None of the above would be acceptable.<br /> <br /> The acceptable (Canadian) response would be:<br /> <br /> 'I find your choice in this matter to be dubious however, respect your point of view.'<br /> <br /> Unfortunately, some Canadians are losing their 'Canadianess', having succumbed to the more (cough, cough) uncouth cultural influences exemplified by shows such as 'Friends'.<br /> <br /> A sorry day in Canuckistan indeed.<br /> <br /> <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/biggrin.gif' alt='Big Grin'>

[gaulois]

Vive le FFFP<br /> What is it anyway? Has it got an identity too? <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/wink.gif' alt='Wink'>

[Brother Jonathan]

It’s the hypothetical <b>F</b>ifty-<b>F</b>our-<b>F</b>orty <b>P</b>arty that only has an identity in my warped imagination.<br /> <br /> <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/redface.gif' alt='Oops!'>, I should’ve added an analogous French acronym — PCQQ, le <b>P</b>arti <b>C</b>inquant-<b>Q</b>uatre-<b>Q</b>uarant (please correct as needed!).<br />

[Calumny]

Oh no, I think you may have created another Canadian political force with your sly Yankee snake oil!!!<br /> <br /> Oh well, what's one more?<br /> <br /> Out of curiosity though, what would be the process involved in a State becoming un-united. Is this a possibility within the U.S. constitutional structure? <br /> <br /> I'm curious because I've come across at least one group promoting this for their particular state (damn fedral guvment)?<br /> <br /> Vive le south rising again!!!<br /> <br /> <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/biggrin.gif' alt='Big Grin'>

[Brother Jonathan]

[QUOTE by Calumny]</b> I think you may have created another Canadian political force with your sly Yankee snake oil!!!<b>[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> The FFFP: neither leftist nor rightist. “We’re downists!”<br /> Le PCQQ: ni gauchiste ni droitiste. «Nous sommes bassistes !»<br /> <br /> (With any luck, I’ve created a “false friend” or three in that “translation”. <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/mrgreen.gif' alt='Mr. Green'>)<br /> <br /> [QUOTE by Calumny]</b> what would be the process involved in a State becoming un-united. Is this a possibility within the U.S. constitutional structure?<b>[/QUOTE]<br /> The Constitution makes no mention of secession, so there are no generally understood principles from the late 18th century to supply an “originalist” answer.<br /> <br /> Three viewpoints were formed in the early 19th century: the first held that since the federal government was a creation of the states, each state retained sufficient sovereignty to withdraw from the union, whether explicitly mentioned in the accession document or not. The second viewpoint held that unless there was an explicit procedure in accession, each state ceded sufficient sovereignty to the union to prevent secession. The third viewpoint, nullification, sidestepped the question of secession by holding that each state could disregard unacceptable federal legislation. There were <a href="http://www.constitution.org/hwdebate/hwdebate.htm">a series of spontaneous debates</a> in the Senate in the 1830s between Robert Hayne and Daniel Webster on state sovereignty and nullification. I enjoyed reading them — such legislative oratory is a long lost art.<br /> <br /> In November 1860, Lincoln was elected on the then-radical abolitionist Republican ticket. That December, South Carolina had a state constitutional convention to adopt an ordinance of secession to dissolve its connection to the union, which it did quickly. Six other Southern states followed a similar pattern between January and March of 1861, after Lincoln’s election but before his inauguration, forming the Confederate States of America. The “lame duck” Buchanan administration refused to cede federally-owned Fort Sumter (in Charleston harbour) to South Carolina, and Lincoln followed suit. War began when South Carolina attacked the fort. After years of subsequent conflict, the seceded states were brought under military occupation, and eventually their representation was restored in Congress as “carpetbagging” unionists were installed in the several previously Confederate state governments.<br /> <br /> Since then, we have acquired a Pledge of Allegiance which describes the USA as a republic comprising <i>one nation, under God, indivisible</i>, presumably based upon the second viewpoint above. For many Americans, it is essentially a civil faith.<br /> <br /> So, to answer your question, it is a possibility, but one that could well trigger reprisal with extreme prejudice. <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/frown.gif' alt='Frown'>

[samuel]

Michou are you going to take this abuse laying down? From being on the receiving end of it, I wouldn't. They deserve to have it put in their faces and readers made aware of it as much as possible.<br /> <br /> Not in reference to your posts Brother Jonathan and Calumny.

[Dino]

[QUOTE BY= paulMartin] Canadians are Americans anyway. They don't even know what the word 'people' feels like. It's an idea, a concept for them. <br /> We will make a country of Québec, and the first thing they will do, they will give it's 4% to Adrienne Clarkson and become a state of U.S. (What they already are)[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> I'm an american? <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/rolleyes.gif' alt='Rolling Eyes'> Then I must also must be Japanese, Australian and German. <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/rolleyes.gif' alt='Rolling Eyes'>

[Dr Caleb]

[QUOTE BY= Brother Jonathan]<br /> Dr Caleb, it would have been fairer to have posted the canadaka.net link rather than the extract, so that michou’s quote could be seen in context.<br /> [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> I disagree Brother J. I am no longer interested in fair. I have tried to be reasonable, I have tried to be civil, and all I get is a knife in my back. Why? (more later). They make up lies, edit their posts after the fact to change the trolls that I don't fall for. "Why are they even here? Why go through the trouble?" I ask myself. (More later)<br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= Brother Jonathan]<br /> [QUOTE by michou]</b> …and I truly object to this kind of practice.<b>[/QUOTE]<br /> Agreed. There’s enough accidental misinterpretation happening in the several Québec threads already, and quoting out of context could be accidentally misinterpreted to be intentionally deceiving.<br /> [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> No, there is no accident to it. All of this deception is intentional. Ask yourself "Why would seperatists return to a federalist site, time after time. They are not in for a warm welcome, if they are not banned outright."<br /> <br /> This quote is from a dated document written prior to the 1995 referendum. A kind soul was nice enough to provide me with links to it, on a federalist site.<br /> <br /> [quote by Jacques Parizeau]In an attempt to stiffen the resolve of nationalists, the PQ also intends to make gestures that will exploit anti- Quebec sentiments in ROC so as to illicit insults and threats against Quebec and French Canadians. (As Parizeau said in December 1995 in an interview with the Los Angeles Times), "Get me half a dozen Ontariens who put their feet to the Quebec flag and I've got it."[/quote]<br /> <br /> [quote by Lucien Bouchard] Discrediting federalism and federalist leaders also helps to reinforce nationalist base support. Aside from refusing to participate in federal activities (which will eventually backfire), the Parti Québécois grasps all potential contentious issues while in Ottawa, according to its party programme, the Bloc Québécois, will do all in its power to show federalism and the central government in a bad light.[/quote]<br /> <br /> [quote by Jacques Parizeau]<br /> The nationalists will tell Quebecers that their differences with the rest of Canada are irreconcilable. They will tell them the patriation and reform of the constitution in 1982 without the consent of Quebec represented a rupture of the Canadian social contract by `English Canada'. They will remind them that even after that when Quebec nationalists joined with Mulroney in the "beau risque" of the Meech Lake Accord it failed as did the attempt at constitutional reform in the Charlottetown Accord. They will say that English nationalists preferred provincial equality to recognizing the distinctiveness of Quebec. And they will recall the high degree of assimilation rates by the French outside of Quebec and the humiliation of being a minority. Imitating their great successes during the constitutional referendum and the Quebec election, the PQ will use leaked documents and personal attacks to besmirch the reputations of Francophone defenders of federalism.'[/quote]<br /> <br /> Now, does my question make a little more sense? Why is it that seperatists ignore facts, like in the Charlettown referendum (which would have given Quebec much of what they are asking for with regards to steering their own destiny) that Atlantic Canada and Ontairo voted for the Accord, and Quebec and the Western provinces voted against it?<br /> <br /> Why do they attempt to convince federalists to let them 'go in peace'. They know we won't give up on getting them fully into Canada. We know we won't convince them to join confederation. Why try to find a middle ground, when there is no middle ground to find?<br /> <br /> It's to piss us off. It's to sow the seeds of fear, uncertainty and doubt. Which is what they tried to do to me. The make up things that I have supposedly said, and use that against me to make me doubt myself, and to make you doubt my intentions.<br /> <br /> If you look on the Vive front page, and look under 'forum posts', the listing is by newest first. If someone goes back and edits their post, the posts are out of order. Posts from 3pm, 2pm, 11am, 1pm are a dead givaway. And when the only registered users I see online are myself and a seperatist, and it's a thread such as this one that is out of chronological order, I know what has happened.<br /> <br /> Trolls that I didn't fall for are edited. Insults are removed. I am not falling for it anymore.<br /> <br /> No more Mr. Nice guy. I'm done coddling these people. From now on, it's the naked truth, unbridled. I love Canada, and these trolls will not shake my love for that, and they will no longer be able to cause me to doubt myself.<br /> <br /> I encourage you all to take this position. It is the same stance you are up against on the other side of the argument. They will do whatever it takes to tear us apart with lies, deception and cowardice. I will fight back with the truth and integrity. Their leaders declared position will not allow for truth and integrity, and they will lose.<br />

[sebastien]

[QUOTE BY= Dr Caleb] <br /> [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> I disagree Brother J. I am no longer interested in fair. I have tried to be reasonable, I have tried to be civil, and all I get is a knife in my back. Why? (more later). They make up lies, edit their posts after the fact to change the trolls that I don't fall for. "Why are they even here? Why go through the trouble?" I ask myself. (More later)<br /> <br /> [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Don't give up Dr Caleb. You can do it. Come on. Stand still. We Québécois are very used to it. Come on Canadians stand still. Looks like the canadian identity is turning out to be fighting against separatism... well be it. <br /> <br /> Canadians stand still against separatism. We Québécois sovereignists stand still against all this federal polite propaganda in our province. You can do the same. Come on Dr Caleb... don't give up that soon !!! <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/wink.gif' alt='Wink'> <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/smile.gif' alt='Smile'> <br /> <br /> CAnadians want to be defined as a people that protect the canadian unity against be it... stand still like those Québécois that lasted for 4 centuries.<br /> <br /> CAnada took its name from the first Québec... took us the national hymn... took a lot national emblèmes... be it. You can do it Canada ! Stand still in the storm. You want to fight separatism... get the canadian army in Montréal and Québec so that the world sees how peaceful Canadians are !!! <br /> <br /> Pathetic is it ! Canadian paradox... let Québec go for c. sake ! <br /> <br /> I will be here until you do some political pressure to let go Québec. Count on me ! I am tired of that constitutional mess. AND NOTHING COMES FROM THE FEDERAL FOR A RENEWAL OF THE CONFEDERATION. NOTHING SINCE 1995...<br /> <br /> WE TAKE US FOR GRANTED MY FRIENDS... CIAO !<br /> You are stuck Dr CAleb... to listen to us... until you get out of Québec. Read that book "Sortir le Canada du Québec". Get Canada out of Québec NOW !

[sebastien]

" I disagree Brother J. I am no longer interested in fair. I have tried to be reasonable, I have tried to be civil, and all I get is a knife in my back. Why? (more later). They make up lies, edit their posts after the fact to change the trolls that I don't fall for. "Why are they even here? Why go through the trouble?" I ask myself. (More later) " dixit Dr Caleb.<br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> Don't give up Dr Caleb. You can do it. Come on. Stand still. We Québécois are very used to it. Come on Canadians stand still. Looks like the canadian identity is turning out to be fighting against separatism... well be it. <br /> <br /> Canadians stand still against separatism. We Québécois sovereignists stand still against all this federal polite propaganda in our province. You can do the same. Come on Dr Caleb... don't give up that soon !!! <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/wink.gif' alt='Wink'> <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/smile.gif' alt='Smile'> <br /> <br /> CAnadians want to be defined as a people that protect the canadian unity against Québec sovereignists, be it... stand still like those Québécois that we are since 4 centuries. <br /> <br /> The name Canadiens was ours firt... don't forget about it. CAnada took its name from the first Québec... took us the national hymn... took a lot national emblèmes... be it. We only ask you to leave us ! We don't even claim that CAnadian identity... geeee. We are not asking for much.<br /> <br /> Stand still Dr Caleb. You can do it Canada ! Stand still in the storm. You want to fight separatism... get the canadian army in Montréal and Québec so that the world sees how peaceful Canadians are !!! Pathetic is it ! Canadian paradox... let Québec go for c. sake ! <br /> <br /> I will be here until you do some political pressure to let go Québec. Count on me ! I am tired of that constitutional mess. AND NOTHING COMES FROM THE FEDERAL FOR A RENEWAL OF THE CONFEDERATION. NOTHING SINCE 1995...<br /> <br /> You TAKE US FOR GRANTED MY FRIENDS... CIAO ! You are stuck Dr CAleb... to listen to us... and the Bloc at Ottawa... until you get out of Québec. You want peace, get out of Québec. You think that Québécois sovereignists will get tired of complaining and claiming their country. Not a chance. Sorry... Be it !<br /> <br /> Read that book "Sortir le Canada du Québec". Get Canada out of Québec NOW !

[Dr Caleb]

Sorry Sebastian.<br /> <br /> If you were that confident in your plans, why would you need our help in them? Vive is far from standing still. We are out there, gaining support for the fight on deep integration. With that base of federalists, the next logical target is seperatists. <br /> <br /> You keep trying to convince us that our differences are too far apart to be overcome, but it is the seperatists that are standing still on that. And it is people like Lucien Bouchard that have convinced you of that, all the while he is the one who is standing still.<br /> <br /> You're the ones convinced that we come to you with open arms, and concealed machine guns. Your 'leaders' are the ones that have convinced you that a federalist cloaked in the Canadian flag, and who holds out a hand of friendship only wants to gun you down in the streets like dogs. <br /> <br /> Who benefits from a soverign Quebec? You? Will it improve your life? Will everyone be legislated to eat, sleep, drink and speak French only? No, culture and language is taught to children, not legslated. Just ask the First Nations. <br /> <br /> Quebec will become a back water, heavily in debt. Countries in this only end up one way - dictatorships. No, Samuel, it's the seperatist leaders, who will base your new nation on a pack of lies and deciet, elevating them from a fringe element to third world dictators.<br /> <br /> The groundswell of federalism will show them for what they really are; liars, traitors, and hatemongers with delusions of grandeur. And I will do what I can to protect you from it, despite you hating me.<br /> <br /> I've said what I came to say. To further acknowledge the seperatists on this site detracts from Vive's mission, and only lends validity to your cause. Beware, these threads aren't going to be measured by the same stick as others. I and other moderators will be reading them with the words 'redundant' 'offtopic' and 'troll' in mind.<br /> <br /> Be well, sebastien.<br />

[sebastien]

[QUOTE BY= Dr Caleb] Sorry Sebastian.<br /> <br /> If you were that confident in your plans, why would you need our help in them? Vive is far from standing still. We are out there, gaining support for the fight on deep integration. With that base of federalists, the next logical target is seperatists. <br /> <br /> You keep trying to convince us that our differences are too far apart to be overcome, but it is the seperatists that are standing still on that. And it is people like Lucien Bouchard that have convinced you of that, all the while he is the one who is standing still.<br /> <br /> You're the ones convinced that we come to you with open arms, and concealed machine guns. Your 'leaders' are the ones that have convinced you that a federalist cloaked in the Canadian flag, and who holds out a hand of friendship only wants to gun you down in the streets like dogs. <br /> <br /> Who benefits from a soverign Quebec? You? Will it improve your life? Will everyone be legislated to eat, sleep, drink and speak French only? No, culture and language is taught to children, not legslated. Just ask the First Nations. <br /> <br /> Quebec will become a back water, heavily in debt. Countries in this only end up one way - dictatorships. No, Samuel, it's the seperatist leaders, who will base your new nation on a pack of lies and deciet, elevating them from a fringe element to third world dictators.<br /> <br /> The groundswell of federalism will show them for what they really are; liars, traitors, and hatemongers with delusions of grandeur. And I will do what I can to protect you from it, despite you hating me.<br /> <br /> I've said what I came to say. To further acknowledge the seperatists on this site detracts from Vive's mission, and only lends validity to your cause. Beware, these threads aren't going to be measured by the same stick as others. I and other moderators will be reading them with the words 'redundant' 'offtopic' and 'troll' in mind.<br /> <br /> Be well, sebastien.<br /> [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Whatever... <br /> Play that Moderator thing my friend... stay blind... as you wish... but please don't come in MONTREAL to say you love us !!! Hypocrits...<br /> <br /> I have better things to do okay. I will go convince my friends from McGill University, Westmount, West Island ... to join us.<br /> <br /> I am not delusional my friend... I just want a STATE FOR MY LITTLE COUNTRY OF QUÉBEC, OF 7,5 MILLIONS INHABITANTS . Delusional ??? There's a hundred countries at the UNITED NATIONS smaller and weaker economically than Québec and you are telling me that I am delusional...<br /> <br /> Don't play that f. PSYCHIATRIST ON ME ! Like MARCARC who is calling paranoid. SEPARATISM IS NOT A DISEASE MY FRIEND. YOU WANT AN ARTICLE ON THAT ??? I CAN SERVE YOU ONE... Always have to explain... geeee boring... I get out of here. Not because I feel forced because it's not worth it...<br /> <br /> Ils comprennent rien ces mecs !<br /> <br /> Vous êtes plus forts que nous bien sûr... mais cela nous empêchera pas de faire rayonner le Québec et sa culture. Je préfère toujours un pays... tu ne me convaincs pas !<br /> <br /> Got that ?

[sebastien]

[QUOTE BY= Dr Caleb] Sorry Sebastian.<br /> <br /> If you were that confident in your plans, why would you need our help in them? Vive is far from standing still. We are out there, gaining support for the fight on deep integration. With that base of federalists, the next logical target is seperatists. <br /> <br /> [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> The question is : are you giving support to Québécois federalists ??? Hmmm... it doesn't seem out here my friend. Keep that delusional thing... Let's say illusion !<br /> <br /> Chrétien is out, Charest is out, Dion is too much arrogant, Lapierre is putting his feet in his mouth theses days... Good luck to federalists ! What are the federal plans ? I don't hear it ofter nowadays ! Where are you Québécois Federalists ? Oh yeah there is CMAB with that ADQ proposition of Autonomy ? Hmmm... hmmm ... why not by it has to get through Canada ? Not a chance in my opinion. <br /> <br /> What are your plans Dr CAleb ? Plan B ? Plan C ? Plan Z ? I am willing to hear it. Try me... but you don't convince me. No talk of a new Confederation of 5 regions (no more 10 provinces) ???? Geeee... no proposition at all. You are boring federalists... cmab at least is giving a try with that autonomist proposition but hey no one here is backing him so ... what do we do ? 40 years guys... 40 years of wasted time... <br /> <br /> ASK ME TO STOP BEING SOVEREIGNIST, JUST GO AHEAD... TRY ME... <br /> <br /> The Sovereignists Leaders are growing : Duceppe, Landry, Larose, Bissonnette...<br /> <br /> Beginning to freak out ??? <br /> <br /> Les amis souverainistes... attendez-vous à de l'agressivité de nos amis Canadians. Quand la soupe commence à chauffer, ils vont commencer à sortir les menaces... Faudra savoir calmer ces gens peureux de la Machine CAnadienne Fédéraliste.<br /> <br /> CAnada Is A BEAUTIFUL COUNTRY... WITHOUT Québec.

[Aldebaran]

I think that Canada doesn't want to see the reality of Quebec, because it's a fact of national pride. The prideful English descendants cannot lose their biggest province. So then they are cannot allow anyone to crush their pride. <br /> <br /> And don't you say: that's not true. We lived that experience here with Texas. The biggest state of Mexico in those time. Oh no we cannot lose Texas.. our biggest state.. We are prideful Spanish descendants.. oh no!!! That cannot be...<br /> <br /> So don't be such a weasels and recognize that you don't wanna let Quebec go because your immense pride.

[sebastien]

Richard Martineau - Voir -26 avril 2005<br /> <br /> " Dans les années 70, on pensait que c'était René Lévesque qui allait mener le Québec à l'indépendance. <br /> <br /> Eh bien, ce n'est ni Lévesque, ni ses successeurs, c'est-à-dire Parizeau, Bouchard ou Landry, qui auront réussi ce pari. C'est Jean Chrétien. <br /> <br /> Jean Chrétien est le professeur Abronsius de la cause indépendantiste. Grâce à lui et à sa bande de joyeux lurons, les "monstres" qui rêvent de démanteler le Canada risquent fort de gagner leur bataille. <br /> <br /> La suite des choses est écrite dans le ciel. Scandale des commandites = élections fédérales = victoire de Stephen Harper = isolement du Québec = impopularité grandissante de Jean Charest = élections provinciales = victoire du PQ = troisième référendum = souveraineté. <br /> <br /> Échec et mat, et merci à monsieur Chrétien pour services rendus. "<br /> <br /> <br /> Oh and by the way... that guy isn't a sovereignist. He's known to have neutral positions out here.<br /> <br /> Starting to freak out ???<br /> Get movin' and fast... things are moving fast here in Québec. " Les Coureurs des Bois et les Filles du Roy ont pris le Chemin Virtuel". GEt the threats movin'... come on Canadians you can do it.<br /> <br /> Amis souverainistes, la partie n'est pas gagnée. Soyons rassurants envers nos voisins apeurés du Canada et des Fédéralistes.<br /> <br /> " Les Coureurs des Bois et les Filles du Roy ont pris le Chemin Virtuel". Michou, 747, Samuel... NOUS SOMMES PRÊTS ! HÉHÉ...