[h.f. wolff]

Bad Sector:<br /> <br /> I know how you feel and I agree with your sentiments! Ontarians should be screaming blue murder over the equalization issue which is robbing them blind.<br /> <br /> However I do not think that separation is the best answer to this problem because:<br /> <br /> 1) As a threat it has seen better days,<br /> 2) The population of Ontario is -what- 12 million or so, enough to make up a very nice country indeed what with Ontarian's inventiveness, work ethic, and resources. But it is too small to count for much on the international scene. I suppose a referendum could decide if this issue were important to the populace.<br /> 3) I just hate to see a nice piece of real estate being broken up and become subject to the vagaries of the U.S. It is bad enough already (the U.S. influence); much smaller countries next door would invite even greater meddling if not downright hostilities. Just read up on the histories of Central and South America!<br /> <br /> In my opinion this issue ought to be an election issue. I am surprised that the previous conservative government did not pick up on this. It could certainly make a terrific election platform for the liberals. Would it be enough to get them re-elected? Good question.<br /> <br /> H.F. Wolff

[Marcarc]

Get real. This is just like Alberta talking-wait until the country builds up an area, then once done with it, toss it aside.<br /> <br /> The auto pact built southern ontario, the federal government centralizing built Ottawa (obviously). All auto manufacturing HAD to be done in southern ontario, that now accounts for one in six good manufacturing jobs. The feds just pumped BILLIONS more into tax concessions, training, and subsidies to auto makers in order to keep the companies from going to Mexico.<br /> <br /> The feds pumped BILLIONS into Research and Development through the R&D strategic initiative. Where did that money go? Well, duh, to southern ontario, which has a university in just about every mid size city. Trent university got more R&D funding than the entire province of PEI. <br /> <br /> Not to mention that a good percentage of ontario jobs are filled by prairiemen and maritimers who got their education paid for by their own provinces, only to see that vanish because of course there are no jobs.<br /> <br /> Didja notice how free trade included EVERYTHING except what is located in southern ontario? Yes, finance, banking, insurance and 'cultural' industries were all protected, and of course the auto sector had its own agreement. <br /> <br /> Thanks to that, and federal policies that let 'free trade' in the financial sector extend as far as Toronto, but no farther, all the savings and insurance from canadians all over canada sits in Toronto and Kitchener. <br /> <br /> Bunch of ingrates.

[empson7]

[QUOTE BY= Marcarc] <br /> The auto pact built southern ontario, the federal government centralizing built Ottawa (obviously). All auto manufacturing HAD to be done in southern ontario, that now accounts for one in six good manufacturing jobs. [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Right said...the nerve of them. In the US the benefits of the auto industry go all the way from Wisconsin to Georgia and has direct economic impact in every region. This country, in shooting itself in the foot, with the autopact saw fit to ONLY build plants in Ontario and Quebec for their sole benefit and to the loss of the rest of the country. <br /> <br /> In fact the sickness of the Left dates back to this treason, when it was the CCF that was hostile to this destruction of national independence and once negotiations gave the 'green light' to a separate new union (as opposed to being under the direction UAW), all of a sudden, the 'new' party was formed in support of the autopact! <br /> Apparantly concerns of sovereignity by 'internationalists' was bourgeois in the grand march of history's working classes AND of course that the dues wouldn't go to Detroit, but Oshawa. (gotta like that sop their bosses tossed them)<br /> <br /> So feel free to take your maple leaf flag, the Stalin-like centralization and Ontario NDPers with you...and don't let that door hit you in the ass.

[Marcarc]

Then there's this:<br /> <br /> "For its part, Ottawa has shown relatively little interest in such studies, at least when it comes to Atlantica. In contrast, Ottawa has contributed funding for the Canada-US-Ontario-Michigan Partnership Transportation Planning/Need Feasibility Study, which has released recommendations on ensuring the safe and efficient movement of people, goods, and services within the region of southeast Michigan and southwest Ontario."<br /> <br /> We're so sad for you Ontario, you've had it so rough.

[h.f. wolff]

[QUOTE BY= Marcarc] Get real. This is just like Alberta talking-wait until the country builds up an area, then once done with it, toss it aside.<br /> <br /> The auto pact built southern ontario, the federal government centralizing built Ottawa (obviously). All auto manufacturing HAD to be done in southern ontario, that now accounts for one in six good manufacturing jobs. The feds just pumped BILLIONS more into tax concessions, training, and subsidies to auto makers in order to keep the companies from going to Mexico.<br /> <br /> The feds pumped BILLIONS into Research and Development through the R&D strategic initiative. Where did that money go? Well, duh, to southern ontario, which has a university in just about every mid size city. Trent university got more R&D funding than the entire province of PEI. [/quote]<br /> <br /> <br /> I'm very glad to hear that the feds see fit to "invest" some funds into Ontario.<br /> <br /> Just where do you think the money came from in the first place???? Quebec, Newfoundland, B.C., P.E.I.?<br /> <br /> Are you aware that the feds pay Quebec $3200 for every immigrant that Quebec chooses to accept, naturally they speak french, whereas Ontario gets $800 for every immigrant the feds accept and make promises to that are not in their jurisdiction to grant.<br /> <br /> I wonder what B.C. gets for each immigrant? <br /> <br /> All I am saying is the the equalizatin payment agreements must be open to public scrutiny; right now it appears that the most money goes to the provincials the feds like best.<br /> <br /> If speaking up against injustices makes me a whiner and moaner, so be it. In Canada it is fact that the squeaky wheel gets the grease. <br /> <br /> H.F. Wolff<br /> <br />

[h.f. wolff]

[QUOTE BY= Marcarc] Get real. This is just like Alberta talking-wait until the country builds up an area, then once done with it, toss it aside.<br /> <br /> The auto pact built southern ontario, the federal government centralizing built Ottawa (obviously). All auto manufacturing HAD to be done in southern ontario, that now accounts for one in six good manufacturing jobs. The feds just pumped BILLIONS more into tax concessions, training, and subsidies to auto makers in order to keep the companies from going to Mexico.<br /> <br /> The feds pumped BILLIONS into Research and Development through the R&D strategic initiative. Where did that money go? Well, duh, to southern ontario, which has a university in just about every mid size city. Trent university got more R&D funding than the entire province of PEI. <br /> [/quote]<br /> <br /> I'm very glad to hear that the feds see fit to "invest" some funds into Ontario.<br /> <br /> Just where do you think the money came from in the first place? Quebec, Newfoundland, B.C., P.E.I.????<br /> <br /> <br /> H.F. Wolff<br /> <br />

[badsector]

So you would move the auto industry to PEI? As far away from Detroit as possible? You think auto makers settle in Southern Ontario as a result of some Liberal conspiracy?<br /> <br /> First, auto makers come to Canada because it's cheaper than the US, thanks to lower wages and universal health care. Second, they come to Ontario for the geographical proximity. It's hard to keep them here though. It takes a lot of government investment to keep the jobs from going elsewhere. Without the well paying auto sector jobs Ontario and Canada would be a significantly poorer place. Ever heard the saying that Ontario is the economic engine of the country? You thought it was a joke? Anyway... the fact is that Ontario pays in $20 billion a year more than it gets back. Our tax dollars support welfare bums across Canada, so they can sit on their asses and log on every now and then to talk trash about Ontario.

[Brother Jonathan]

I hope that all of you will forgive my current ignorance of equalization payments in the questions and comments that follow; I’d appreciate learning where my current understanding is off-kilter …<br /> <ul><br /> <li>Don’t equalization payment dollars come from Ottawa, rather than from the provincial treasuries? If that is the case, does the Ontarian 20 B$ discussed above refer to Ontario’s contribution of federal income taxes, or to some other provincial pot of money?</li><br /> <li>Isn’t the equalization payment agreement already open to public scrutiny, e.g. via the <i><a href="http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/F-8/241876.html">Federal-Provincial Fiscal Arrangements Act</a></i> / <i><a href="http://lois.justice.gc.ca/fr/F-8/243529.html">Loi sur les arrangements fiscaux entre le gouvernement fédéral et les provinces</a></i>?</li><br /> <li>Given the existence of the “five-province standard” for determining the baseline revenue capacity, and given that Ontario is among those five provinces, wouldn’t a reduction in Ontario’s revenue capacity also reduce that baseline, and thereby reduce equalization payments?</li><br /> </ul><br />

[Marcarc]

From Detroit, who cares about Detroit? The american market is in the south, and the west coast and east coast are just as close, so, YES, move SOME of it to the east coast, this IS supposed to be ONE country isn't it?<br /> <br /> Automakers 'came' to Canada because it was a market-same reason they go anywhere. The Auto Pact, in case you haven't read it, killed the canadian auto industry as a trade off to american manufacturers making canadian autos. Which is why Bricklyn couldn't get any federal funding, and had to milk New Brunswick dry.<br /> <br /> Southern Ontario became the manufacturing centre of Canada primarily due to CD Howe, an american industrialist who was in charge of Canada's war economy. He closed down manufacturing in every part of Canada and relocated it to Ontario. Even the british government censured Canada's officials as war profiteers. <br /> <br /> So that's what we always hear, in Ontario it's 'investment', in the rest of Canada its' 'subsidies' and 'equalization'. <br /> <br /> As for those 'taxes', well, we DO know where they come from-at least a good part. Why do you think you can buy fish and shellfish in ontario as cheaply as Nova Scotia? Or lumber? Thats legislation. It's also legislation that doesn't let provinces regulate their insurance or banking industries. It's FAR different in the states, where such things are even regulated LOCALLY.<br /> <br /> When somebody pays their insurance bill in Regina, or Moncton, where do you think it goes? To southern ontario. The worst environmental destruction going on in British Columbia is from two albertan farmers who got the money, you guessed it, from Manulife in Toronto. <br /> <br /> With central banking its impossible to get funding for companies in regional areas, because they will compete with southern ontario ones.<br /> <br /> They even closed the shipyards in New Brunswick, so they can buy cheap used British ships-and provide no jobs. So ONE kind of manufacturing-cars, gets billions pumped into it, whereas other manufacturing-ships, gets closed down. <br /> <br /> That has been the way of it since confederation of course, the places with the representation - quebec and ontario, get the goods, the others get the shaft. Where do you think 'western alienation' comes from? Heaven forbid Ontarians admit they have a point out west! At least in the west they were far enough from ontario they could build their own infrastructure, whereas the east isn't so fortunate. Without equalization they would literally be third world provinces, but that doesn't seem to bother some people.

[h.f. wolff]

[QUOTE BY= Marcarc] At least in the west they were far enough from ontario they could build their own infrastructure, whereas the east isn't so fortunate. Without equalization they would literally be third world provinces, but that doesn't seem to bother some people.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> <br /> Your generalizations are so far off base as to be laughable.<br /> <br /> In a democracy the majority generally gets its way, but not always. Look around you now and decide for yourself if the government actions taken are really in the best interest of the country.<br /> <br /> Answer this question: Why have so many immigrants moved to Ontario and not stayed at the east coast which is so much closer to Europe where the original settlers came from? The east coast had coal and iron ore, and now oil, the raw materials western civilizations are built on. Ontario has no coal and little iron ore, yet a great society has been built, one that supports the well being of 33 million people. Or why have so many people and businesses moved away from Quebec in the last 25 years?<br /> <br /> As I stated earlier I have no problem with equalization payments as long as the rules are transparent and REASONABLE. For Quebec to claim that they don't get enough in transfer payments is truly laughable AND CERTAINLY not REASONABLE, what with their cheap electricity from Labrador's Churchill Falls which is sold in the U.S. at American prices...wonder if this figures into the equalization mix? Yet Quebec gets enough so they can afford to waste money on such things as the language police, their own taxation system, a billion dollar stadium now crumbling, subsidized child care, "embassies" around the world bad-mouthing Canada, all funded by guess who?<br /> <br /> A particularly irksome policy implemented by the former liberal government and condoned/fostered by the current feds is that the eastern oil producing provinces still insist on getting transfer payments as before, while espousing slogans such as "hands off our oil".<br /> <br /> Historically people have moved to where the economic prospects are best (other things being more-or-less equal). If the economic prospects in parts of the country are not good enough the populace there is either free to move to greener pastures or to suck it up and live with it.<br /> <br /> If I choose to live in the boon docks should I then insist on a research hospital, a university, public transportation, etc. next door, all funded by others, so that I don't have to live in a "third world environment"? A rather crass comparison but it illustrates the point.<br /> <br /> To the guy who earlier bitched about universities in every town of Ontario: Last time I read about this Nova Scotia had more post secondary education establishments per capita than any other province.<br /> <br /> H.F. Wolff<br /> <br />

[Dr Caleb]

[QUOTE BY= Brother Jonathan] I hope that all of you will forgive my current ignorance of equalization payments in the questions and comments that follow; I’d appreciate learning where my current understanding is off-kilter …<br /> <ul><br /> <li>Don’t equalization payment dollars come from Ottawa, rather than from the provincial treasuries? If that is the case, does the Ontarian 20 B$ discussed above refer to Ontario’s contribution of federal income taxes, or to some other provincial pot of money?</li><br /> <li>Isn’t the equalization payment agreement already open to public scrutiny, e.g. via the <i><a href="http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/F-8/241876.html">Federal-Provincial Fiscal Arrangements Act</a></i> / <i><a href="http://lois.justice.gc.ca/fr/F-8/243529.html">Loi sur les arrangements fiscaux entre le gouvernement fédéral et les provinces</a></i>?</li><br /> <li>Given the existence of the “five-province standard” for determining the baseline revenue capacity, and given that Ontario is among those five provinces, wouldn’t a reduction in Ontario’s revenue capacity also reduce that baseline, and thereby reduce equalization payments?</li><br /> </ul><br /> [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Spot on, Brother J.

[h.f. wolff]

[QUOTE BY= Dr Caleb] <br /> <br /> Spot on, Brother J.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> <br /> 'Tain't so.<br /> <br /> Not with the Prime Minister gallivanting about the countryside making special deals with Newfoundland, Quebec, PEI, and who knows who.<br /> <br /> These deals are SECRETLY arranged behind closed doors. Now and again things leak out such as the $3200 Quebec gets for each immigrant, whereas Ontario receives only $800 per immigrant. I suppose the feds could argue that a French speaking immigrant is worth soooo much more (to Quebec)!<br /> <br /> Anybody know what British Columbia and Alberta get per immigrant?<br /> <br /> H.F. Wolff

[h.f. wolff]

[QUOTE BY= Brother Jonathan] I hope that all of you will forgive my current ignorance of equalization payments in the questions and comments that follow; I’d appreciate learning where my current understanding is off-kilter …<br /> <ul><br /> <li>Don’t equalization payment dollars come from Ottawa, rather than from the provincial treasuries? If that is the case, does the Ontarian 20 B$ discussed above refer to Ontario’s contribution of federal income taxes, or to some other provincial pot of money?</li><br /> <br /> As far as I know its based on the taxes the feds collect in each province. The feds in turn spend this money on common expenditures such as leaky second hand submarines, pension plans (except Quebec) expeditions into Afghanistan.....you get the idea. The feds also turn over a large part of their revenues to provincial governments through cost sharing of various programs such as post-secondary education, health care, child care in Quebec, etc.<br /> <br /> All provinces and territories receive more, sometimes much more, in federal cash and services than the feds collected in that jurisdiction EXCEPT for Alberta and Ontario. Hence the statement (substantiated by independant audit) that Ontario ante's up $20 Billion more each year than it receives in federal payments and services.<br /> <br /> <li>Isn’t the equalization payment agreement already open to public scrutiny, e.g. via the <i><a href="http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/F-8/241876.html">Federal-Provincial Fiscal Arrangements Act</a></i> / <i><a href="http://lois.justice.gc.ca/fr/F-8/243529.html">Loi sur les arrangements fiscaux entre le gouvernement fédéral et les provinces</a></i>?</li><br /> <br /> No, as I have tried to explain in a post below. <br /> <br /> <li>Given the existence of the “five-province standard” for determining the baseline revenue capacity, and given that Ontario is among those five provinces, wouldn’t a reduction in Ontario’s revenue capacity also reduce that baseline, and thereby reduce equalization payments?</li><br /> </ul><br /> [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Mathematically you are correct.<br /> <br /> But ask yourself these questions: <br /> <br /> Why is the baseline for transfer payments based on 5 provinces?<br /> <br /> Why not on all 10 provinces including 3 territories?<br /> <br /> Why include Alberta and/or Ontario in establishing the baseline for equalization?<br /> <br /> Mathematically the reason is to make the baseline index as high as possible, ie. increase the amount of the transfers. This is accomplished by a) leaving out the lower indecies which would reduce the average; b) include higher indecies which raise the average, ie. Alberta and/or Ontario.<br /> <br /> What in fact is done is that some sharp federal mandarins establish a mix that many people and politicians don't follow or understand, agree to in order to get the deal done, or go golfing, or for donuts. <br /> <br /> (If you think I exaggerate just look up the financing deals Toronto and Waterloo city politicians signed: It turned out the loan agreements were for more than 2x the amount the politicians and their advisors thought they had signed. Some of these turkeys (advisers / managers)were paid more than $150,000 per year! The deals were for $220,000,000 in the case for Waterloo, a city of 100,000, and $80,000,000 in the case for Toronto for computer rentals).) (That's right, 220 million and 80 million).<br /> <br /> You will note that establishing the baseline is quite an arbitrary task and has absolutely nothing to do with fairness, equity, brotherly love, etc., but strictly on what will cause the least amount of political fallout from either the payer or the payee: the squeaky wheel gets the grease.<br /> <br /> Thus Ontario will have to holler long and loud to be heard and have a more equitable arrangement implemented.<br /> <br /> H.F. Wolff<br /> <br />

[Brother Jonathan]

[QUOTE by h.f. wolff]</b> Now and again things leak out such as the $3200 Quebec gets for each immigrant, whereas Ontario receives only $800 per immigrant … Anybody know what British Columbia and Alberta get per immigrant?<b>[/QUOTE]<br /> All that I could find was that Québec has its own agreement with the federal government for immigration settlement dollars, and the ROC divvies up a fixed immigration-settlement federal budget item among themselves, which could explain the dollars-per-immigrant discrepancy. If it’s the amount-per itself that’s the problem, then Ontario could lobby Ottawa to either (a) quadruple the ROC budget item, or (b) reduce the number of ROC immigrants by a factor of four; either would bring Ontario parity with Québec. (If the Québec amount is also fixed, then quadrupling the number of Québec immigrants would also bring parity.)<br /> <br /> [QUOTE by h.r. wolff]</b> But ask yourself these questions:<br><br /> Why is the baseline for transfer payments based on 5 provinces?<br><br /> Why not on all 10 provinces including 3 territories?<b>[/QUOTE]<br /> The consitutionally mandated goal for equalization payments is <i>to ensure that provincial governments have sufficient revenues to provide reasonably comparable levels of public services at reasonably comparable levels of taxation</i>. Given that the territories are lightly and sparsely populated, this would drive up the cost of “reasonably comparable levels of public services” when compared to the provinces, which probably explains why the territories have their own separate equalization-type program.<br /> <br /> Similarly, PEI’s small population and NL’s sparse population (particularly in Labrador) would increase the cost of per-capita services there, so they too should probably not form part of the “reasonably comparable” baseline.<br /> <br /> I’d guess that AB, NB, and NS were left out to mediate the baseline, to avoid outliers to skew the baseline too far in either direction.<br /> <br /> [QUOTE by h.f. wolff]</b> You will note that establishing the baseline is quite an arbitrary task and has absolutely nothing to do with fairness, equity, brotherly love, etc., …<b>[/QUOTE]<br /> Obviously the goal <i>reasonably comparable</i> can’t be objectively quantified; thus, there’s plenty of room for negotiation and compromise in determining just what it means and how best to achieve that meaning. The Act is a complex beast, to be sure; for example, it relies on at least 31 different revenue sources (11 of which are resource-based, with nine of the 11 being different varieties of oil and natural gas revenues!) to come up with each province’s revenue capacity. The Act has been revised multiple times over the years, and I don’t doubt that it will continue to be modified in years to come to reflect changing realities.<br /> <br /> In the interim, <a href="http://ontarianseparatist.blogspot.com/">here’s an Ontarian separatist</a> with whom financial fine-tuning can be discussed. <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/wink.gif' alt='Wink'>

[michou]

Love this thread. It reminds me of a cartoon once seen in a Canadian newspaper. It consisted of four images of a Canadian map over a span of a few years. The first one showed the west separating from the Canadian federation, followed by the Atlantic provinces and then by Ontario and the territories. The fourth one depicted what was left of Canada ... Québec. I love it. <br /> <br /> <br />