[stokes]

I have been to both Hong Kong and Shanghai, and have gone from market to market trying to get the best price on things, they even barter hard for the knock-offs because a lot of them are government sanctioned as they make a lot of money from stupid westerners. Trust me the Chinese are all about the money, and the communism is just for controlling the people!!

[ShepherdsDog]

you paid the foreigner price for your stuff too.

[stokes]

Of course I did, but compared to the prices here, they were an absolute steal.

[bootlegga]

Chinese people I've met argue that their government, as imperfect as it is, does exactly that. The difference is they do what's best for the most nation, not the individual.

You can bitch about the million or so peasants who were forced to move by the Three Gorges Dam, but it creates power for thousands of homes, factories and businesses, raising the quality of life for tens of millions. The Chinese always look to the greater good (like the Vulcans - the good of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one).

I've had arguments/discussions with Chinese people who LIKE the totalitarian governmnet because it gets things done far quicker and effectgively than our style of government. They built 4 subway lines in Beijing for the Olympics in three years. Do you think any Canadian city could have done the same? Hell, it's taken Edmonton over 20 years to build one that goes from one end of the city to the other. They scoff at how long it takes to get things done here in Canada, when compared to China. Democracy is one thing that slows India's growth, because the poor can and do kick governments out of office if they don't feel they are getting their fair share.

You and I may not like their government, but that's not up to you or I. The Chinese themselves have to decide to change governments.

[DerbyX]

bootlegga wrote:

Chinese people I've met argue that their government, as imperfect as it is, does exactly that. The difference is they do what's best for the most nation, not the individual.

You can bitch about the million or so peasants who were forced to move by the Three Gorges Dam, but it creates power for thousands of homes, factories and businesses, raising the quality of life for tens of millions. The Chinese always look to the greater good (like the Vulcans - the good of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one).

I've had arguments/discussions with Chinese people who LIKE the totalitarian governmnet because it gets things done far quicker and effectgively than our style of government. They built 4 subway lines in Beijing for the Olympics in three years. Do you think any Canadian city could have done the same? Hell, it's taken Edmonton over 20 years to build one that goes from one end of the city to the other. They scoff at how long it takes to get things done here in Canada, when compared to China. Democracy is one thing that slows India's growth, because the poor can and do kick governments out of office if they don't feel they are getting their fair share.

You and I may not like their government, but that's not up to you or I. The Chinese themselves have to decide to change governments.

Exactly. Just as it is for all countries and people.

[commanderkai]

bootlegga wrote:

You can bitch about the million or so peasants who were forced to move by the Three Gorges Dam, but it creates power for thousands of homes, factories and businesses, raising the quality of life for tens of millions. The Chinese always look to the greater good (like the Vulcans - the good of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one).

Eh? That doesn't bother me at all. Its the whole exporting of poisonous food and toys to other countries that bothers me. Once their lax safety controls start affecting us, we have a problem.

Quote:

You and I may not like their government, but that's not up to you or I. The Chinese themselves have to decide to change governments.

Oh you mean back in 1989 when thousands of students marched for Democracy, only to be slaughtered. Yeah, fun times for government change. The average Chinese citizen has little ability to actually change government, while you're making it sound like all it takes is a nice knock on the door asking for a new leader.

That's the strangest thing, really. How do you expect millions of people who have no vote, or any guns, to be heard? You expect the Chinese to change, but only the government has true power. Everybody else doesn't matter. So until the Chinese actually MAKES a choice, I won't exactly see their government as a graceful one

[Bacardi4206]

What do I want with China? That they stop breaking the rules, start treating the population with some freedom and respect and stop trying to kill our population with poisonous products that are poorly made and makes you wonder why in the hell do we allow these cheap ass products that break too fast full of chemicals that can kill you to be sent to our country in the first place.

My mom's friend had a family in China who owned farm land. The Chinese government just took away there land. The way they treat there citizens is the oposite of what the west belives civilians should be treated. So basicly if you can't handle the critisizm than stop doing shit that we hate.

[Pseudonym]

I could make a pretty good list of particulars, but the question in general is much more interesting.

There has been a pretty big divide between much of the European West and America in political goals in recent years, so I am not sure how much China could do to please everyone. Acting in one's own national interest is expected, but a certain degree of morality is desired in the actions of any nation state.

[ridenrain]

Commanderkai is right that the people in China who want the change are the first in the gulags.
We can't change the criminal mob that runs China but we can understand them better, and not with flowery lies written by some party hack.

[DerbyX]

You had better start reading about our own history first instead of buying your own propaganda.

Boots is correct. The Chinese people will sort their country out. Concerned about their products? Petition your own government for stricter inspections and controls instead of crying about them when they aren't doing anything we didn't do from the industrial revolution and on. We set the standards.

You also have the option of not buying their products or shopping at stores that do. Nobody is forcing you to go to walmart.

I just love how you guys whine about the china not having a good democracy yet when others take the very democracy we forced on them and use it to legally and legitimately enshrine the very behaviour we dislike in law you complain about that.

[bootlegga]

commanderkai wrote:

bootlegga wrote:

You can bitch about the million or so peasants who were forced to move by the Three Gorges Dam, but it creates power for thousands of homes, factories and businesses, raising the quality of life for tens of millions. The Chinese always look to the greater good (like the Vulcans - the good of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one).

Eh? That doesn't bother me at all. Its the whole exporting of poisonous food and toys to other countries that bothers me. Once their lax safety controls start affecting us, we have a problem.

So you'd prefer they just poison their own citizens like we do with Listeria here in Canada? Please, if you don't want to eat Chinese White Rabbit candy or feed your dog Chinese-made dog food, or use drywall made in China, that is your choice.

You know, capitalism is a funny thing. When people stop buying stuff, the company goes under and stops making it. Yes, the Chinese are to blame for making that shit, but Westerners are guilty too, as lots of us keep buying that shit. Why, because our companies make shitloads of money (only 15 cents of every dollar of goods stays in China, the rest is exported to us)? That allows for huge dividends (and therefore fatter 401Ks/RRSPs), as well as cheaper products on our shelves when we go Christmas shopping.

The key here is to STOP BUYING cheap crap made in China. If you stop buying, I guarantee, they will stop making it.

It's just like fast food. As long as people are stupid enough to shovel down Baconators, companies will keep making them, because they are profitable. You can't bitch at Wal-Mart for importing it anymore than you can bitch at Wendy's for making Baconators.

Ever hear the proverb, fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me?

commanderkai wrote:

Quote:

You and I may not like their government, but that's not up to you or I. The Chinese themselves have to decide to change governments.

Oh you mean back in 1989 when thousands of students marched for Democracy, only to be slaughtered. Yeah, fun times for government change. The average Chinese citizen has little ability to actually change government, while you're making it sound like all it takes is a nice knock on the door asking for a new leader.

That's the strangest thing, really. How do you expect millions of people who have no vote, or any guns, to be heard? You expect the Chinese to change, but only the government has true power. Everybody else doesn't matter. So until the Chinese actually MAKES a choice, I won't exactly see their government as a graceful one

If you think the Chinese government isn't shitting its pants right now, you don't know much about China. The reason the economy is so key to the country is because if people don't get to eat, revolts happen. That's the way it's always been in China, and likely always will be. Mao himself rode to power on the backs of the peasants.

China has a small problem these days. About 300 million people are migrant workers, who move around the country, looking for work and sleeping in bus stations, under doorways, etc. While the eastern seaboard is enjoying rapid economic growth, the interior and western parts of China are still subsisting on a tiny annual income of a couple hundred bucks (compared to more than 10 times that in say Shanghai or Beijing). It is this demographic that terrifies the ruling party because they know if they don't address their issues, someone can come along and whip them into a frenzy and start another civil war.

The West has interfered with China's domestic politics for centuries and they are at least partially (if not mostly) responsbile for the Communists taking power in 1949. Like I said, the Chinese government is far from perfect, but it has to be the people of China who decide on governmental change, not a bunch of malcontents in Canada or Taiwan. Trust me, if the Chinese peasants who form the vast majority of the population decide that the Communists are in their best interests, they'll get rid of them. The riots Tibet had would be nothing next to a couple of hundred million people suddenly took to the streets.