[N_Fiddledog]

Oh, but T, here's an interesting thing about Sam Harris. He's not a Socialist. He's not a Progressive. I believe he's among the classic liberals who refer to Progressives as "the regressive left."

I think I heard Orwell referred to himself as a 'democratic socialist' but at other times was quoted as thinking maybe he was some sort of anarchist. He wasn't a totalitarian though and that's where he would have parted company with Progressives because that appears to be what they are incrementally "progressing" towards.

Bertrand Russell, I don't know too much about. Apparently, he came out with some clever quips every now and again though. He's no Winston Churchill or anything but good on him for what he could manage.

[Thanos]

The philosophers like Russell and Orwell kept moving on until they found a place where they'd make their stand, and where they stopped was usually at where humanity, humane behaviour, and justice for all would intersect. They didn't stop thinking, unlike today's alleged conservatives, on what they would find when they were young. It's a lifelong journey, not something that ends when taking commerce classes at university or reading the pap that was generated by Ayn Rand, who went out of her way to label any human decency for the poor and weak as being worng. If it ends with the embrace of cruelty and brutality then that person has failed in the main task of their life in becoming a decent person.

As for Harris his main concerns seem to be freedom of speech & thought and anti-totalitarianism, which he shows in his works against both Islam and the retrograde left. At the same time I've never encountered anything to suggest that Harris endorses anarcho-capitalism of the sort Trump and the current GOP represent. Or anti-socialism. Or the alt-right. Or modern American-style Christianity that's stricken with vicious and anti-human fundamentalism as much as Islam is. If people like Harris today, or others like Douglas Murray or the late great Christopher Hitchens battled modern leftism it simply cannot be taken as a given that they automatically supported current right-wing extremism in any (social/religious/economic) of it's forms.

That's where you guys fail consistently. You never look at the balance of any intellectual's lifelong work, to find where they ended up with their views. This is why you're failing right now, because it's led to the place where only the freedoms that the very worst among us (the capitalists, the right-wing extremists, the Christian fundamentalists, the gun fetishists, the crypto-fascist alt-right) mean anything to you. And you consistently fail because you don't care in the slightest what happens to anyone else when these maniacs and monsters exercise their freedoms to cause as much damage as they can to both the overall society as well as to any individuals that get caught in their path of destruction.

[DrCaleb]

Thanos Thanos:

That's where you guys fail consistently. You never look at the balance of any intellectual's lifelong work, to find where they ended up with their views. This is why you're failing right now, because it's led to the place where only the freedoms that the very worst among us (the capitalists, the right-wing extremists, the Christian fundamentalists, the gun fetishists, the crypto-fascist alt-right) mean anything to you. And you consistently fail because you don't care in the slightest what happens to anyone else when these maniacs and monsters exercise their freedoms to cause as much damage as they can to both the overall society as well as to any individuals that get caught in their path of destruction.

I'm pretty sure this whole tendency to pigeon-hole people that they don't like, such as taking the old political term 'Progressive' and re-badging it as something undesirable, is just a way to dismiss the concept that the word originally comes from. "Progress". Without progress, we stagnate. Blacks and women would still be property, without the rights to vote or self determination. We'd still have outdoor plumbing, and we'd still be getting horrible waves of disease because we'd be keeping animals that we used for food in our houses in order to get the freshest meat. The streets would be full of manure, and dead animals from all the horse and carriage traffic.

Progress is a good thing. 'Progressives' aren't evil lefties bent on curbing society into a politically correct stifled state. Those are something else. Invent some other derogatory term for those people, and let us be. Stop calling us 'progs'. It only serves to divide society further to heap malevolence on those undeserving.

[fifeboy]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

Thanos Thanos:

That's where you guys fail consistently. You never look at the balance of any intellectual's lifelong work, to find where they ended up with their views. This is why you're failing right now, because it's led to the place where only the freedoms that the very worst among us (the capitalists, the right-wing extremists, the Christian fundamentalists, the gun fetishists, the crypto-fascist alt-right) mean anything to you. And you consistently fail because you don't care in the slightest what happens to anyone else when these maniacs and monsters exercise their freedoms to cause as much damage as they can to both the overall society as well as to any individuals that get caught in their path of destruction.

I'm pretty sure this whole tendency to pigeon-hole people that they don't like, such as taking the old political term 'Progressive' and re-badging it as something undesirable, is just a way to dismiss the concept that the word originally comes from. "Progress". Without progress, we stagnate. Blacks and women would still be property, without the rights to vote or self determination. We'd still have outdoor plumbing, and we'd still be getting horrible waves of disease because we'd be keeping animals that we used for food in our houses in order to get the freshest meat. The streets would be full of manure, and dead animals from all the horse and carriage traffic.

Progress is a good thing. 'Progressives' aren't evil lefties bent on curbing society into a politically correct stifled state. Those are something else. Invent some other derogatory term for those people, and let us be. Stop calling us 'progs'. It only serves to divide society further to heap malevolence on those undeserving.

Yep!

[BartSimpson]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

Funny because Trump supporters are the most deluded collection of groupthinkers that has ever existed in a first world country. Nobody has ever been so hypocritical, self-contradicting, morally and intellectually incoherent, or fervently supportive of far-fetched fabricated conspiracies as this cult-like political minority. But it’s a stretch to suggest they actually think

You don't see how you're illustrating Groupthink in action, do you?

First, by acting as if you were personally attacked by this concept you telegraph the fact that you believe it applies to you.

Second, you answer the challenge of the concept not by raising discussion points but by attempting to marginalize and dehumanize your opposition...which itself is a hallmark of Groupthink behavior.

Third, you offer a plethora of charges absent any actual proof to substantiate the charges. All that matters is that your charges help to bring about a desired outcome.

Of course that now begs the question:

I get it that you hate me, you hate Trump, you hate conservatives, you hate Christians, you probably hate Jews, and you hate heterosexuals.

So what do you want to become of us? Hmmmm?

What's your final solution to the conservative problem? Hmmmm?

[BartSimpson]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

'Progressives' aren't evil lefties bent on curbing society into a politically correct stifled state.

Yet in one sentence you've neatly summarized exactly what they're doing, haven't you?

[DrCaleb]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

'Progressives' aren't evil lefties bent on curbing society into a politically correct stifled state.

Yet in one sentence you've neatly summarized exactly what they're doing, haven't you?

And you demonstrated the process of pigeon-holing. I have always considered myself 'Progressive', yet you label such people (and therefore me) as: "totalitarian thugs who masturbate themselves to fantasies of slaughtering capitalists, libertarians, Christians, Jews, actual liberals, and anyone else who doesn't worship government as a deity. "

Since I am 'Progressive', should this not apply to me and anyone else here who believes in 'progress'?

[N_Fiddledog]

Thanos Thanos:

The philosophers like Russell and Orwell kept moving on until they found a place where they'd make their stand, and where they stopped was usually at where humanity, humane behaviour, and justice for all would intersect.

They sound like the sort of thinkers who might eventually say something quotable.

So what's you're beef, chief? I quoted one of them. Stick around. I might do it again.

You're saying they were Liberal thinkers, right? See that's the problem with not watching the video the thread is based on.

Pat Condell is pro liberal-thinking and by posting his video I'm saying "Good one, Pat Condell."

He is a Liberal in the classic sense and he abhors what Progressivism has become. He seems to think of it as a thing that has no common ground with liberalism but has hijacked the mainstream left with a lie of selective tolerance.

The reason many of us including Condell and myself don't identify Progressives by the original definition isn't because we're redefining it. It's because those who self-identify as progressives have. To ignore that would be to ignore the obvious. Something the new "Progressives" like to do btw.

[BartSimpson]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

And you demonstrated the process of pigeon-holing. I have always considered myself 'Progressive', yet you label such people (and therefore me) as: "totalitarian thugs who masturbate themselves to fantasies of slaughtering capitalists, libertarians, Christians, Jews, actual liberals, and anyone else who doesn't worship government as a deity. "

Since I am 'Progressive', should this not apply to me and anyone else here who believes in 'progress'?

I've never considered you to be, or labeled you as a 'progressive'.

I consider you and Zipperfish to be among the few classical liberals on this site.

I would never say otherwise.

[Tricks]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

'Progressives' aren't evil lefties bent on curbing society into a politically correct stifled state.

Yet in one sentence you've neatly summarized exactly what they're doing, haven't you?

And you demonstrated the process of pigeon-holing. I have always considered myself 'Progressive', yet you label such people (and therefore me) as: "totalitarian thugs who masturbate themselves to fantasies of slaughtering capitalists, libertarians, Christians, Jews, actual liberals, and anyone else who doesn't worship government as a deity. "

Since I am 'Progressive', should this not apply to me and anyone else here who believes in 'progress'?

If you're anything like me you've been called alt-right and a social justice warrior within the same week by separate people.

[DrCaleb]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

And you demonstrated the process of pigeon-holing. I have always considered myself 'Progressive', yet you label such people (and therefore me) as: "totalitarian thugs who masturbate themselves to fantasies of slaughtering capitalists, libertarians, Christians, Jews, actual liberals, and anyone else who doesn't worship government as a deity. "

Since I am 'Progressive', should this not apply to me and anyone else here who believes in 'progress'?

I've never considered you to be, or labeled you as a 'progressive'.

I consider you and Zipperfish to be among the few classical liberals on this site.

I would never say otherwise.

That's the danger of redefining words to suit an agenda. The only political party I ever held membership in was the "Progressive Conservative Party of Canada". I consider myself 'Progressive' because otherwise we stagnate. FYI, The PC's were considered partly 'Red Tories', so 'classic liberal' isn't too far off.

So by redefining 'Progressive' into basically 'Militant Hardcore Communist' you paint everyone who sees themselves as 'progressive' with that brush.

Find another word!

[DrCaleb]

Tricks Tricks:

If you're anything like me you've been called alt-right and a social justice warrior within the same week by separate people.

Even around here, I've been a 'tightie rightie' to AndyT, and a Pinko Commie to the Fiddlebot.

[N_Fiddledog]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

And you demonstrated the process of pigeon-holing. I have always considered myself 'Progressive', yet you label such people (and therefore me) as: "totalitarian thugs who masturbate themselves to fantasies of slaughtering capitalists, libertarians, Christians, Jews, actual liberals, and anyone else who doesn't worship government as a deity. "

Since I am 'Progressive', should this not apply to me and anyone else here who believes in 'progress'?

I've never considered you to be, or labeled you as a 'progressive'.

I consider you and Zipperfish to be among the few classical liberals on this site.

I would never say otherwise.

To me, it's more like an HIV infection. As I understand it one can get the infection but it doesn't necessarily manifest as full-blown Aids.

Nevertheless...there can be symptoms.

Like, for instance, if one refused to acknowledge that the ones who redefined Progressivism were those who self-identify as Progressives through their behaviour not those who noticed the phenomena. And if one insisted on ignoring this in spite of the multiple times one had it explained to one, that kind of self-imposed ignorance to allow the signaling of virtue and present oneself as the true arbiter of fact would be a symptom.

[BartSimpson]

Dr. C,

Thomas Jefferson was a classical liberal. I consciously grouped you in his company.

Now stop complaining.

[Tricks]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

Dr. C,

Thomas Jefferson was a classical liberal. I consciously grouped you in his company.

Now stop complaining.

I read some interesting musings/writings from Jefferson. Apparently he believed that the Constitution should be re-written each generation or two, he said the dead shouldn't govern the living. Seeing political climate over the last couple decades, I feel like he over-estimated people's ability to work together.