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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 12:55 pm
 




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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 1:44 pm
 


Of course Gunnair your entire statement fails on an epic level because even the most zealot of people all agree and understand there is no "My truth and your truth". There is simply truth. Something is true or it's not.

You can call that arrogant but it doesn't erase the facts.

You do not get to place your faith on the same level as actual reason.

edit: I'm going to send a message to the mods but I'm sure I'm not the only one at this point questioning if the op should be removed from these forums since he never participates in other threads and just spams his vapid nonsense.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 1:58 pm
 


CanadianJeff CanadianJeff:
Of course Gunnair your entire statement fails on an epic level because even the most zealot of people all agree and understand there is no "My truth and your truth". There is simply truth. Something is true or it's not.

You can call that arrogant but it doesn't erase the facts.

You do not get to place your faith on the same level as actual reason.

edit: I'm going to send a message to the mods but I'm sure I'm not the only one at this point questioning if the op should be removed from these forums since he never participates in other threads and just spams his vapid nonsense.


Yeah we get it Jeff, you have issues with religion. I'm not sure if its a power issue with you to seek out people of faith and out of the blue bombard them with posts on how wrong their faith is, like it's any of your business of course, but it certainly smacks as much for you and some of the other aggressive atheists here.

Honestly, you can't present truth any more than I can since neither of us know for sure in the end, but you certainly demonstrate some compulsion to roll in here play the uber aggressive prick for some reason when it comes to this.

Like I said, sure smells like some kind of power issue with you and some of the others. There are other ways to work around weakness in real life than hopping in the thread to attempt to bludgeon me to agreeing with you.

You could assume I don't care just like I assume you're not interested in swinging over to my beliefs. Or you could ignore that and try to go for the throat. and I do mean try.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 2:03 pm
 


Oh goody, Sandorkski is now using youtube just like the idiot OP.

Well done.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 2:13 pm
 


martin14 martin14:
Oh goody, Sandorkski is now using youtube just like the idiot OP.

Well done.


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Please...the man of one word rejoinders moving onto Youtube. Don't act like you are surprised.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 4:33 pm
 


Gunnair Gunnair:
CanadianJeff CanadianJeff:
Of course Gunnair your entire statement fails on an epic level because even the most zealot of people all agree and understand there is no "My truth and your truth". There is simply truth. Something is true or it's not.

You can call that arrogant but it doesn't erase the facts.

You do not get to place your faith on the same level as actual reason.

edit: I'm going to send a message to the mods but I'm sure I'm not the only one at this point questioning if the op should be removed from these forums since he never participates in other threads and just spams his vapid nonsense.


Yeah we get it Jeff, you have issues with religion. I'm not sure if its a power issue with you to seek out people of faith and out of the blue bombard them with posts on how wrong their faith is, like it's any of your business of course, but it certainly smacks as much for you and some of the other aggressive atheists here.

Honestly, you can't present truth any more than I can since neither of us know for sure in the end, but you certainly demonstrate some compulsion to roll in here play the uber aggressive prick for some reason when it comes to this.

Like I said, sure smells like some kind of power issue with you and some of the others. There are other ways to work around weakness in real life than hopping in the thread to attempt to bludgeon me to agreeing with you.

You could assume I don't care just like I assume you're not interested in swinging over to my beliefs. Or you could ignore that and try to go for the throat. and I do mean try.


Actually I don't think I'm acting like any uber aggressive prick at all. Again I just don't think we can talk about this issue because you can't seem to get past the "He must have personal issues" thing.

You may also notice that I've never said that you don't care. I think you care a great deal about a good many things or you wouldn't spend time on a forum of discussion about politics and other such things. I think we both obviously care.

Frankly I expressed my opinions and you just took offense. It happens but I'm not trying to shove anything down your throat.

I will speak openly against religion because I feel the institution of religion causes a lot of ills in the world and your free to speak out against but leave the personal shit at the door. Let's just live and let live.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 4:47 pm
 


CanadianJeff CanadianJeff:
Gunnair Gunnair:
CanadianJeff CanadianJeff:
Of course Gunnair your entire statement fails on an epic level because even the most zealot of people all agree and understand there is no "My truth and your truth". There is simply truth. Something is true or it's not.

You can call that arrogant but it doesn't erase the facts.

You do not get to place your faith on the same level as actual reason.

edit: I'm going to send a message to the mods but I'm sure I'm not the only one at this point questioning if the op should be removed from these forums since he never participates in other threads and just spams his vapid nonsense.


Yeah we get it Jeff, you have issues with religion. I'm not sure if its a power issue with you to seek out people of faith and out of the blue bombard them with posts on how wrong their faith is, like it's any of your business of course, but it certainly smacks as much for you and some of the other aggressive atheists here.

Honestly, you can't present truth any more than I can since neither of us know for sure in the end, but you certainly demonstrate some compulsion to roll in here play the uber aggressive prick for some reason when it comes to this.

Like I said, sure smells like some kind of power issue with you and some of the others. There are other ways to work around weakness in real life than hopping in the thread to attempt to bludgeon me to agreeing with you.

You could assume I don't care just like I assume you're not interested in swinging over to my beliefs. Or you could ignore that and try to go for the throat. and I do mean try.


Actually I don't think I'm acting like any uber aggressive prick at all. Again I just don't think we can talk about this issue because you can't seem to get past the "He must have personal issues" thing.


I would agree. Since you can't seem to get passed the "I don't think I'm acting like any uber aggressive prick" each time you roll into any discussion on religion in attack mode and focusing those attacks, obviously, on people of faith that post here.

It would be nice for a live and let live but you've not shown any history of doing that when it comes to this - you opt for the personal every time you chose to offer offence and attack the beliefs of others on this forum. The personal stuff comes right back at you.

Deal with it.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:47 pm
 


CanadianJeff CanadianJeff:
Of course Gunnair your entire statement fails on an epic level because even the most zealot of people all agree and understand there is no "My truth and your truth". There is simply truth. Something is true or it's not.
Correct. None of us can know this truth.



CanadianJeff CanadianJeff:
You do not get to place your faith on the same level as actual reason.
This is your truth, not the truth. Herr Kant and Herr Gödel, among others, had something to say about this.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 7:48 pm
 


sandorski sandorski:
Zipperfish Zipperfish:
sandorski sandorski:

Did you read what you just posted?


I surmised from your earlier posts that the narrower definition applies to you. If I'm wrong on that, I stand corrected.

While faith may be a "shot in the dark," it's worth noting that logical dedcution and indiction utlimately rely on faith.


In what way?


Science relies quite a bit on logic. There's logical induction, anbd the problem of induction was demonstrated by David Hume in 1740. In fact, induction only works if you have faith in a consistent universe. Then there's logical deduction. Logical theorems can be derived from other theorems. But they must be all ultimately be derived from axioms--things that are believed to be so self-evident that they must be true (things like a part of soemthing is smaller than the whole of something). However the axioms themselves are not based on anything except faith. In other words, with logical deduction, you can't find the truth with logic, unless you've already found the truth without it.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 8:22 pm
 


Zipperfish Zipperfish:


Science relies quite a bit on logic. There's logical induction, anbd the problem of induction was demonstrated by David Hume in 1740. In fact, induction only works if you have faith in a consistent universe. Then there's logical deduction. Logical theorems can be derived from other theorems. But they must be all ultimately be derived from axioms--things that are believed to be so self-evident that they must be true (things like a part of soemthing is smaller than the whole of something). However the axioms themselves are not based on anything except faith. In other words, with logical deduction, you can't find the truth with logic, unless you've already found the truth without it.


The above is logically true. So long as you have faith that the person in the mirror is actually yourself and not some devious plot of the god behind the mirror.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:31 pm
 


as a scientist myself, I am astounded by how little we actually know about...anything really. To me, it's the height of hubris to start cutting down the faith of others whwn we know so little.

I read Sam Harris's book Free Will. In it he makes an excellent case that free will is an illusion. And that there are logical problems with (a) an omniscient God and (b) people with free will. If God knows the future, than how can Humankind have free will? After all, if the future is already preordained (in God's eyes) then isn't our free will an illusion. And if we, as people, actually have free will, then God couldn't know the future.

So Harris concludes that free will is illusory. I think he's right. But why stop at free will. The idea that we make up out minds for ourselves is central to our idea of self. And the self, ultimately, is just as illusory. The idea of consciousness--who we really are--is just as illusory. Consciousness is nothing but some kind of emergent property of some ten trillion cells in our body working symbiotically. The entire idea of self is an illusion.

There are many other illusions. The difference between energy and mass--illusion. Form and emptiness--illusion. Time and space--illusion. According to quantum physics, it's all just chance, probability waves, accident.

C.S. Lewis C.S. Lewis:
If the solar system was brought about by an accidental collision, then the appearance of organic life on this planet was also an accident, and the whole evolution of Man was an accident too. If so, then all our present thoughts are mere accidents -- the accidental by-product of the movement of atoms. And this holds for the thoughts of the materialists and astronomers as well as for anyone else's. But if their thoughts -- i.e., Materialism and Astronomy -- are mere accidental by-products, why should we believe them to be true


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 1:08 am
 


I'm afraid we will have to agree to disagree but at the very least it's the institution I have a problem with so I'm sorry if you feel things are more personal in addressing that then they should be.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:09 am
 


Xort Xort:
FrenchPatriot FrenchPatriot:
If believers believed that God’s laws are moral, it follows that they would be trying to have them implemented by governments. Strangely, they do not.

You must not know many muslims, or know much about the world.



Thanks for the poke and running away without informing or refuting.

Much like a child would do.

Regards
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:21 am
 


FrenchPatriot FrenchPatriot:
Xort Xort:
FrenchPatriot FrenchPatriot:
If believers believed that God’s laws are moral, it follows that they would be trying to have them implemented by governments. Strangely, they do not.

You must not know many muslims, or know much about the world.



Thanks for the poke and running away without informing or refuting.

Much like a child would do.

Regards
DL

That's a bit hypocrite, isn't it, FP?


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:27 am
 


Gunnair Gunnair:
CanadianJeff CanadianJeff:
[q

As for poisoning the well, the fact that you have the need to assault the idea to begin with and not take it apart defenisvely is amazingly arrogant. Please, post the names of the regulars here who also profess to persons of faith that initiate these conversations by putting that in your face or make even attempt number one to convert you...

On the other hand, the list of aggressive atheists with issues hiding behind their need to push the truth is quite long.


Proverbs 3:12
For whom the LORD loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth.

It is rather frustrating to be corrected but I wonder why you would complain when all atheists are doing is following the commandment of doing unto others and showing their love. Sure it is tough love sometimes but that is the nature of debate and discussion.

I believe that you have faith but question it's usefulness and true existence because Jesus says you should be able to show it yet no one ever has.


If you have made the mistake of belief in a literal God then show your faith as Jesus says you can. If you have forced your apotheosis as I have it should be no problem.

This is how a true Christian shows his faith.
You might note that there is no one here with faith.
If there was, we would all know it.

Matthew 17 :20
And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

Mark 16:17-18.
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

There is a small mountain of 10 million children under 10 who will starve to death this year and the next if you do not show what your faith is worth.

Unfortunately, there are no true believers.

You might note that there is no one here with faith.
If there was, we would all know it.

Just so you know where your bible was born.
Dailymotion - 2007-Doc Zone - Pagan Christ 1 of 3 - une vidéo Actu et Politique

Regards
DL


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