[ShepherdsDog]

Christianity is but one facet. I just put the fail in for the hell of it. I'm quite aware of the contribution of early Germanic peoples(and their beliefs) to our modern laws and democracy. My point was not Christianity specifically, but religions in general, start out as a positive force shaping and codifying our laws and moral codes. Religion was a unifying force in many places.

My point of contention is mostly with Scape's point that Soviet society was a modern society of laws without religion. It evolved from an Orthodox Russian culture almost a thousand years old, that in turn retained traditions, laws and practices from the pagan society that preceded it, just as Anglo civilization has. In each stage though it was the religious authorities that codified law and it was these figures that people turned to, to adjudicate conflict to ensure civility and social harmony.

[Lemmy]

Law has its origins in several types of primary sources. Religion is one. Custom is another. "Natural Law", or the basic understanding of right and wrong engrained in every human, by nature or our creator or whatever, is part of both.

[Scape]

ShepherdsDog wrote:

My point of contention is mostly with Scape's point that Soviet society was a modern society of laws without religion. It evolved from an Orthodox Russian culture almost a thousand years old, that in turn retained traditions, laws and practices from the pagan society that preceded it, just as Anglo civilization has. In each stage though it was the religious authorities that codified law and it was these figures that people turned to, to adjudicate conflict to ensure civility and social harmony.

The same could be said about Pagans as a precursor to Christianity. Christmas was after all a pagan holiday that was incorporated in order to bring more Pagans over to their version of faith. Does that mean that Christianity is a facade of Paganism? No.

The same hold true that Russian culture being atheist with a history of the Orthodox faith did not mean that the Atheists were just unenthusiastic practitioners of orthodoxy. They were very much their own independent identity just as any other before it.

[ShepherdsDog]

you'll notice that I said each builds on the other adding, and adapting as they see fit. However, there is a pre existing foundation of laws and moral codes, from which laws themselves were born...all of them the product of a religious belief system.

[Scape]

andyt wrote:

Feel free to say it, many people do. But don't start cherry picking evil and lay it only on Christianity. Pedophiles have sex with kids not because of Christianity.

Pedophiles abuse their position of authority as a means to get children to lay with them. The Church then tries to cover it up. Two wrongs do not make a right. In this case the church is used as a lure and then a shield for evil.

andyt wrote:

Wars are fought over resources, religion is almost always just a cover. It's a way of determining who is us and who is them. We could fight wars as easily over which side of a boiled egg you slice open. Astan bred the Taliban because of corruption and poverty - people figured Islam would save them.

War never changes. Where have I heard that from? However, the Church is much more then a scape goat. The church held positions of high authority for a very long time, the crusades were about money but they were inspired in the name of the lord. Jihad is the reason the towers fell. Religion is an enabler not an innocent bystander as many who commit the act of murder do so in the name of a higher power not for some monetary reward because they know they will never be able to spend it where they are going.

andyt wrote:

If your argument is is Christianity a net force for good, ie does it create more good than evil, then I would go with Penetrators point - impossible to say.

Well then a bit of a luxury then isn't it? If it is that frivolous as we can not even agree that it does any good then it's time it started pulling their weight at least. Tax exempt status for cults should be pulled. You want to pray to a flying spaghetti god fill your boots but that silliness shouldn't have tax exempt status and neither should any church then.

andyt wrote:

At bottom, what is Christianity? There are many different kinds of Christians in the world, many churches, many Christians who don't belong to any church. I guess to be a Christian you have to believe that Jesus is the son of God, which I don't. But following his teachings wont' get you far wrong, so he's certainly an exemplar of good in the world.

And we are all free to follow whichever faith we wish but doing so you are tenants to that faith. You may very well end up at the gates speaking to St. Peter and he could say sorry, Scientology is the path choose people and no matter how many good works you did your going to hell because you choose wrong.
If religion really is that fickle perhaps it has outlived its usefulness.

[Scape]

ShepherdsDog wrote:

you'll notice that I said each builds on the other adding, and adapting as they see fit. However, there is a pre existing foundation of laws and moral codes, from which laws themselves were born...all of them the product of a religious belief system.

We don't need training wheels to ride a bike either. After a while as we evolve and the vestiges of the old rituals are throwbacks to be discarded. Intuitions inherently lend stability but they can also end up being a deadly yoke that strangles us if we don't have the wherewithal to understand that the facade of stability has too long been running on autopilot. Example: Egypt.

[Unsound]

Also, refrigerator.