[stratos]

wow I make one comment and you want to be like desert dude. You know he does hit an run comments so I assume you will do the same thing. You don't like being questioned about what you post don't post it. I asked civilly and you want to act butthurt.

[N_Fiddledog]

Fighter Fighter:

I can talk about my country/culture since I don't know about others'.

In Pakistan, boys go for marriage when they are at least 25 while girls' marriage discussion get starts when she reaches her 18....It is general. While it Depends on family to family as well

Wikipedia disagrees with you.

According to them something was brought in called 'The Child Marriage Restraint Act' in 1929

$1:

Child marriage in Pakistan is legally prohibited to an extent under the Child Marriage Restraint Act 1929 (No XIX). Under the Act, the minimum age for marriage is 18 years for a male and 16 years for a female (section 2).[9] Contravention is punishable with a fine of Rs.1000 and an imprisonment of one month or both for:

An adult male (above 18 years of age) who contracts marriage with a child (section 4).[10]
A person who solemnizes a child marriage (section 5).[11]
A parent or guardian who does not act to prevent a child marriage (section 6).[12]

The 1929 Act is one of those few laws on the statute books that were introduced by the founder of Pakistan, Mohammad Ali Jinnah, while he was a member of the British India Legislative Assembly. It was passed on October 1, 1929, to restrain the solemnization of child marriages and applied to the whole of India effective April 1, 1930. It still remains in force, and extends to the whole of Pakistan. It applies to, both Muslim and Non-Muslim, citizens of Pakistan, and regardless of whether they are resident in Pakistan or elsewhere.[11]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_mar ... n_Pakistan

Elsewhere in the article, you will discover there is a large segment of the Pakistani population that does not follow that particular law very well.

[N_Fiddledog]

Here's another thing, Fighter.

You began this thread like this:

$1:

This thread is just for educational purpose. As a Pakistani Muslim, I think I really need to learn about Islam.

Therefore I don't understand why you're getting so huffy about all the useful corrections you've been so graciously offered to your misconceptions.

[N_Fiddledog]

Oh and on the religious input to child marriage in Pakistan: if you have a problem with Wikipedia in general, as many of us do, information can be found easily elsewhere. For example:

$1:

The Council of Islamic Ideology (CII), a constitutional recommendatory body that provides legal advice to the Pakistani government and parliament, ruled on Tuesday that laws which ban underage children from getting married are “un-Islamic.” The CII also determined that according to Islam there is no minimum age for marriage – although it deems that Rukshati (the consummation of marriage) should only occur when both husband and wife have reached puberty. Pakistani laws presently mandate that the minimum age for marriage is 18 years for a male and 16 for a female. CII, as an advisory body, cannot enact laws on its own.

Dawn, an English-language Pakistani daily, reported that the CII chairman, Maulana Mohammad Khan Sheerani, also blasted laws forbidding polygamy...

http://www.ibtimes.com/child-marriage-s ... dy-1560767

[Fighter]

stratos stratos:

wow I make one comment and you want to be like desert dude. You know he does hit an run comments so I assume you will do the same thing. You don't like being questioned about what you post don't post it. I asked civilly and you want to act butthurt.

N_Fiddledog N_Fiddledog:

Oh and on the religious input to child marriage in Pakistan: if you have a problem with Wikipedia in general, as many of us do, information can be found easily elsewhere. For example:

$1:

The Council of Islamic Ideology (CII), a constitutional recommendatory body that provides legal advice to the Pakistani government and parliament, ruled on Tuesday that laws which ban underage children from getting married are “un-Islamic.” The CII also determined that according to Islam there is no minimum age for marriage – although it deems that Rukshati (the consummation of marriage) should only occur when both husband and wife have reached puberty. Pakistani laws presently mandate that the minimum age for marriage is 18 years for a male and 16 for a female. CII, as an advisory body, cannot enact laws on its own.

Dawn, an English-language Pakistani daily, reported that the CII chairman, Maulana Mohammad Khan Sheerani, also blasted laws forbidding polygamy...

http://www.ibtimes.com/child-marriage-s ... dy-1560767

[N_Fiddledog]

This below doesn't apply to you, of course, Fighter, because as we know (because you told us so) you don't think too much about religion. But seeing as this thread is interesting little side bits about Islam it's worth knowing.

[N_Fiddledog]

Not all Muslims practice Taqiyya or the three other forms of deceit that can be taught in Islam though. That's a given.

For example, here's a Muslim who seems sincere.

$1:

As a teenager growing up in Egypt in the 1980s, I liked to stroll through Cairo’s outdoor book market, fishing out little gems like an Arabic translation of “War and Peace.” One day I stumbled upon a book that shook everything I believed in.

The book was “In the Shadows of the Quran,” Sayyed Qutb’s magnum opus. The Egyptian writer, who died in 1966, remains arguably the most influential thinker in contemporary Muslim societies. He was the principal theorist of the Muslim Brotherhood and the intellectual impetus behind the Islamist parties it spawned. Qutb’s ardent disciples included Osama bin Laden and Ayman Zawahiri of al Qaeda. It is not an exaggeration to say that Qutb is to Islamism what Karl Marx is to communism.

Qutb’s brilliance as a theorist was in how he applied Western-style literary criticism to the Quran to interpret God’s intentions. He concluded that the reason for the Muslim world’s decline were external cultural and political influences that diluted Islam: The culprits included everything from Greek empiricism and liberal democracy to socialism, Persian poetry and Hegelian philosophy. The only path to an Islamic renaissance was to cleanse Muslim societies of these contaminants and restore Islam to its seventh-century purity.

Today, Qutb’s outlook—Islamism—is the dominant political ideology in most Muslim-majority countries, often taking root in vacuums where secular politics have never had space to develop. Polls by the Pew Research Center, such as 2013’s “The World’s Muslims” indicate that in many Muslim countries, the population is overwhelmingly in favor of veiling for women, the death penalty for leaving Islam and stoning as punishment for adultery; rabid anti-Semitism is rampant. The few exceptions to these statistics tend to be countries with a long history of militant secularism (like Turkey), or former communist states (Tajikistan, Bosnia, Albania, etc.) where religion was effectively wiped out of the public sphere. But Islamism is now growing even in those places.

The trend of history is being reversed. In Egypt, for instance, veiling was unheard of 50 years ago and was virtually extinct until the Islamists resurrected the practice in the 1970s. Today an estimated 90% of Egyptian women are veiled. In many other countries the veil—originally a tribal norm not a religious one—is now ubiquitous, as are views on apostasy in countries that were far more progressive 50 years ago.

Many of my fellow Muslims are trying to reform Islam from within. Yet our voices are smothered in the West by Islamist apologists and their well-meaning but unwitting allies on the left. For instance, if you try to draw attention to the stark correlation between the rise of Islamic religiosity and regressive attitudes toward women, you’re labeled an Islamophobe.

In America, other contemporary ideologies are routinely and openly debated in classrooms, newspapers, on talk shows and in living rooms. But Americans make an exception for Islamism. Criticism of the religion—even in abstraction—is conflated with bigotry toward Muslims. There is no public discourse, much less an ideological response, to Islamism, in academia or on Capitol Hill. This trend is creating an intellectual vacuum, where poisonous ideas are allowed to propagate unchecked.

My own experience as a Muslim in New York bears this out. Socially progressive, self-proclaimed liberals, who would denounce even the slightest injustice committed against women or minorities in America, are appalled when I express a similar criticism about my own community.

Compare the collective response after each harrowing high-school shooting in America. Intellectuals and public figures look for the root cause of the violence and ask: Why? Yet when I ask why after every terrorist attack, the disapproval I get from my non-Muslim peers is visceral: The majority of Muslims are not violent, they insist, the jihadists are a minority who don’t represent Islam, and I am fear-mongering by even wondering aloud.

This is delusional thinking. Even as the world witnesses the barbarity of beheadings, habitual stoning and severe subjugation of women and minorities in the Muslim world, politicians and academics lecture that Islam is a “religion of peace.” Meanwhile, Saudi Arabia routinely beheads women for sorcery and witchcraft.

In the U.S., we Muslims are handled like exotic flowers that will crumble if our faith is criticized—even if we do it ourselves. Meanwhile, Republicans and Democrats alike would apparently prefer to drop bombs in Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan and beyond, because killing Muslims is somehow less offensive than criticizing their religion? Unfortunately, you can’t kill an idea with a bomb, and so Islamism will continue to propagate. Muslims must tolerate civilized public debate of the texts and scripture that inform Islamism. To demand any less of us is to engage in the soft bigotry of low expectations.

Aly Salem is an Egyptian writer based in New York.

[Fighter]

Lying is one of the greatest sins

A tradition from the Holy Prophet (S) declares,

“Beware I inform you regarding the greatest of the mortal sins: Associating anything with Allah, disobeying parents and lying!

https://www.al-islam.org/greater-sins-volume-2-ayatullah-sayyid-abdul-husayn-dastghaib-shirazi/seventeenth-greater-sin-lying

[N_Fiddledog]

Actually, there are four. I can explain in detail if you like.

[desertdude]

Fighter, you do know you are an idiot right?

You are going to start a thread about Islam when you really don't know much about it, in a forum which is inhabited by self proclaimed arm chair experts who already have their minds made up and you can bring down angels from the heavens above and they still won't listen to you, who have no life other than trawling the interwebz for garbage 24/7, seriously?

I think your biggest clue should have the 100 plus page anti Islam mega thread run by a couple of "experts on Islam"

I'll just hang around to watch the show!

[desertdude]

stratos stratos:

wow I make one comment and you want to be like desert dude. You know he does hit an run comments so I assume you will do the same thing.

HEY !!!!

Stop dragging me into this shit show!

[N_Fiddledog]

desertdude desertdude:

I'll just hang around to watch the show!

Or you could participate and get your ass handed to you again courtesy of more of those fact things you seem to have such a problem with.

[Fighter]

desertdude desertdude:

Fighter, you do know you are an idiot right?

You are going to start a thread about Islam when you really don't know much about it, in a forum which is inhabited by self proclaimed arm chair experts who already have their minds made up and you can bring down angels from the heavens above and they still won't listen to you, who have no life other than trawling the interwebz for garbage 24/7, seriously?

I think your biggest clue should have the 100 plus page anti Islam mega thread run by a couple of "experts on Islam"

I'll just hang around to watch the show!

I get it what you're saying. I am going to end this thread may be in week or two...I just wanted to bring the picture of Islam which people in west don't really know about....I mean how many westerners do know how Hazrat Umar (RA), the second Caliph of Muslims, accepted Islam. Obviously very few....

Just little bit more and I'll be out of this thread.

I remember your comment.

Peace

-------------------------------------

How Khalid Ibn Al-Waleed Embraced Islam

Author:
Adil Salahi, Arab News
Publication Date:
Mon, 2005-06-06 03:00

Khalid ibn Al-Waleed, a division commander of the Quraysh’s army at the Battle of Uhud, managed to attack the Muslims from behind and turn their victory into a military defeat. He was a young man of great promise. Indeed, he was to become one of the most distinguished commanders the world had ever known. However, it took him a long time before beginning to think of adopting Islam. He says that the process began when he started to reflect on his past attitude during events of great importance.

“I fought all those battles against Muhammad (pbuh). Every time I felt that all my efforts were to no avail. I was certain that Muhammad would eventually be the winner. When the Prophet came and encamped at Al-Hudaybiyah, I commanded a detachment of horsemen from among the idolaters until we met the Prophet and his companions at Asafan. I drew close to him to provoke him. He and his companions prayed Zuhr in front of us. We thought of attacking them, but we refrained. He must have realized what we were thinking of when the next prayer, Asr, was due. He therefore, led his companions in what is known as “the prayers of fear”. That affected us profoundly and we realized that he was immune from our attack. We therefore drew back.

When the terms of the peace agreement of Al-Hudaybiyah were eventually negotiated and the Prophet and his companions went home, I started thinking about what might come next and what was in store for us. I thought hard: Where should I go? Should I join Negus? But then I remembered that he had already become a follower of Muhammad and that Muhammad’s companions were safe under his protection. Should I go and join Heraclius? That would have made me a Christian or a Jewish convert. That prospect did not appeal to me. Should I emigrate or should I stay where I was, waiting for something to happen?”

This state of confusion was not to be easily resolved for Khalid. He did not wish to emigrate where he would have had to prove his worth. If he stayed in Makkah, on the other hand, he knew for certain that the eventual triumph of Islam was only a matter of time. His confusion, however, clouded his vision and he could not see that the right course of action was to look at Islam objectively. Weeks and months passed and he could not make up his mind. When a year was over, and Prophet Muhammad and his companions came to Makkah for their compensatory Umrah, Khalid did not wish to look at the Muslims coming into Makkah. He went into the mountains and stayed until the Prophet and his companions departed.

When he went back home, he found a letter left him by his brother, Al-Waleed ibn Al-Waleed, who had been a Muslim for some time. The letter read as follows:

“In the name of God, the Merciful, the Beneficent.

I am infinitely amazed at the fact that you continue to turn away from Islam when you are as intelligent as I know you to be. No one can be so blind to the truth of Islam. God’s Messenger asked me about you, and said: ‘Where is Khalid?’ I said to him: ‘God will bring him to us.’ He said: ‘A man of his caliber cannot remain ignorant of Islam. If he would use his intelligence and his experience for the Muslims against the idolaters, he would benefit from it a great deal. We would certainly give him precedence over others.’ It is high time, brother, for you to make amends for the great benefits you have missed.”

When Khalid read his brother’s letter, he felt as if a curtain which had blurred his vision for a long time was removed. He was pleased at the fact that the Prophet himself inquired about him. He felt a strong desire to become a Muslim. That night he dreamt that he was in a narrow strip of land in a barren desert and he was walking on and on until he came into an open, green, limitless field. It did not take him long to make up his mind that the right course for him was to become a Muslim. He decided to join the Prophet at Madinah.

He felt, however, that he needed to have a companion to go with him. He looked for a young man from the nobility of Makkah and the first one he approached was Safwan ibn Umayyah. Safwan’s father and brother were killed at the Battle of Badr. His uncle was killed at Uhud. Safwan belonged to that generation of Quraysh leaders who viewed their conflict with Islam in clear-cut terms. He had resolved not to compromise with Prophet Muhammad and he was in no mood to do so when Khalid approached him. Nevertheless, Khalid said to him: “Do you not see that Muhammad is gaining the upper hand against both the Arabs and the non-Arabs? It is certainly expedient for us to join him and share in whatever success he may achieve.” Safwan took a very extreme attitude and said to Khalid: “If all the Arabs followed Muhammad and I was the only one left, I would still not join him.”

When Khalid heard this reply he thought that Safwan was a man who nursed his grudges and he remembered that his father and brother were killed at Badr. He, therefore, tried to look for someone else. By chance, he met Ikrimah ibn Abu Jahl, whose father had always been the most determined enemy of Islam, until he was killed at Badr. Ikrimah’s reply to Khalid’s approach was in terms similar to those of Safwan. Khalid, however, asked him not to mention his approach to anyone and lkrimah promised him that.

Khalid then met Uthman ibn Talhah, a close friend of his. He thought of probing the matter with him, then he remembered that Uthman’s father, uncle and his four brothers were all killed at the Battle of Uhud. Khalid hesitated, expecting a reply similar to those of Safwan and Ikrimah. Eventually, he probed Uthman, speaking first about the fact that the Muslims continued to gain strength. He then said: “I compare our position to that of a fox in a hole. If you pour a bucket of water down into the hole, you can be certain that the fox will come out.” Then Khalid proposed to Uthman that they join the Prophet in Madinah. Uthman responded positively. The two agreed to start their journey after midnight, and each to travel on his own and meet at the break of day at Ya’jaj. They then continued their journey together until they arrived at Al-Haddah, where they met Amr ibn Al-Aas. He said to them: “Welcome. Where are you heading?” Realizing that they all had the same purpose, the three of them moved together until they arrived on the outskirts of Madinah, where they stopped to change their clothes. Khalid’s report is as follows:

“God’s Messenger (peace be upon him) was informed of our arrival, and he was pleased. I put on one of my best suits and went ahead to meet the Prophet. On the way I was met by my brother, who said to me: ‘Be quick. God’s Messenger has been informed of your arrival and he is pleased. He is waiting for you.’ We then moved faster until we saw him at a distance, smiling. He wore his smile until I reached him and greeted him as God’s Prophet and Messenger. He replied to my greeting with a face beaming with pleasure. I said: ‘I declare that there is no deity but God, and that you are God’s Messenger.’ He said: ‘Come forward.’ When I drew nearer, he said to me: ‘I praise God for guiding you to Islam. I have always been aware that you are endowed with great intelligence and I have always hoped that your intelligence will lead you only to what is right and beneficial.’ I said to him: ‘Messenger of God, I am thinking of those battles at which I was fighting against the side of the truth. I request you to pray God for me to forgive me.’ He said: ‘When you embrace Islam, all your past sins are forgiven.’ I said: ‘Messenger of God, is that a condition?’ He said: ‘My Lord, forgive Khalid ibn Al-Waleed every effort he exerted to turn people away from Your path.’ Uthman and Amr then pledged their allegiance to the Prophet. By God, ever since our arrival in the month of Safar in the 8th year of the Prophet’s emigration, the Prophet consulted me about every serious matter which cropped up, ahead of all his other companions.”

http://www.arabnews.com/node/268075

[N_Fiddledog]

That's a fun little tale. Kind of like El Cid without the re-reversal back to the Christian side in the end.

Here's my favourite story of a leader who found himself facing the onslaught of Mohammed's conquering horde though.

$1:

Kinana and the seige of Khaybar


As I explain in my book The Truth About Muhammad, Muhammad led a Muslim force against the Khaybar oasis, which was inhabited by Jews — many of whom he had previously exiled from Medina. When he did so, he was not responding to any provocation. One of the Muslims later remembered: “When the apostle raided a people he waited until the morning. If he heard a call to prayer he held back; if he did not hear it he attacked. We came to Khaybar by night, and the apostle passed the night there; and when morning came he did not hear the call to prayer, so he rode and we rode with him….We met the workers of Khaybar coming out in the morning with their spades and baskets. When they saw the apostle and the army they cried, ‘Muhammad with his force,’ and turned tail and fled. The apostle said, ‘Allah Akbar! Khaybar is destroyed. When we arrive in a people’s square it is a bad morning for those who have been warned.’”

The Muslim advance was inexorable. “The apostle,” according to Muhammad’s earliest biographer, Ibn Ishaq, “seized the property piece by piece and conquered the forts one by one as he came to them.” Another biographer of Muhammad, Ibn Sa’d, reports that the battle was fierce: the “polytheists…killed a large number of [Muhammad’s] Companions and he also put to death a very large number of them….He killed ninety-three men of the Jews…” Muhammad and his men offered the fajr prayer, the Islamic dawn prayer, before it was light, and then entered Khaybar itself. The Muslims immediately set out to locate the inhabitants’ wealth. A Jewish leader of Khaybar, Kinana bin al-Rabi, was brought before Muhammad; Kinana was supposed to have been entrusted with the treasure of one of the Jewish tribes of Arabia, the Banu Nadir. Kinana denied knowing where this treasure was, but Muhammad pressed him: “Do you know that if we find you have it I shall kill you?” Kinana said yes, that he did know that.

Some of the treasure was found. To find the rest, Muhammad gave orders concerning Kinana: “Torture him until you extract what he has.” One of the Muslims built a fire on Kinana’s chest, but Kinana would not give up his secret. When he was at the point of death, one of the Muslims beheaded him. Kinana’s wife was taken as a war prize; Muhammad claimed her for himself and hastily arranged a wedding ceremony that night. He halted the Muslims’ caravan out of Khaybar later that night in order to consummate the marriage.

Muhammad agreed to let the people of Khaybar to go into exile, allowing them to keep as much of their property as they could carry. The Prophet of Islam, however, commanded them to leave behind all their gold and silver. He had intended to expel all of them, but some, who were farmers, begged him to allow them to let them stay if they gave him half their yield annually. Muhammad agreed: “I will allow you to continue here, so long as we would desire.” He warned them: “If we wish to expel you we will expel you.” They no longer had any rights that did not depend upon the good will and sufferance of Muhammad and the Muslims. And indeed, when the Muslims discovered some treasure that some of the Khaybar Jews had hidden, he ordered the women of the tribe enslaved and seized the perpetrators’ land. A hadith notes that “the Prophet had their warriors killed, their offspring and woman taken as captives.”

Thus when modern-day jihadists invoke Khaybar, they are recalling an aggressive, surprise raid by Muhammad which resulted in the final eradication of the once considerable Jewish presence in Arabia. To the jihadists, Khaybar means the destruction of the Jews and the seizure of their property by the Muslims.

https://gellerreport.com/2017/12/khayba ... eans.html/

[stratos]

desertdude desertdude:

stratos stratos:

wow I make one comment and you want to be like desert dude. You know he does hit an run comments so I assume you will do the same thing.

HEY !!!!

Stop dragging me into this shit show!

Actually Fighter did on the previous page.

On a side note thanks for making it clear Fighter doesn't know shite about this topic.