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CKA Uber
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 10:57 pm
 


andyt andyt:
How do you square that circle? By saying the two realms are separate? Don't they have to meet at some point? I think they do, but that point is beyond our current ability to understand.

Anyway, according to GFPB you're just deluded or ignorant.



Well technically sceince does not deal with teh supernatural. But supernatural is really well defined.

They are separate in that the truths of religion or ancient, revealed and eternal, whereas the truths of science are uncovered and provisional. Part of teh faith of science is that theories must accord with independent observation. Then again, independent observation seesm to fall apart at teh quantum level.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 5:52 am
 


BeaverFever BeaverFever:
$1:
For clarification I am an atheist and believe any adult living in the 21st century with access to the internet who still believes in god(s), heaven, hell, angels, fairies, pixies, leprechauns, unicorns, magic powers, ghosts, goblins, Santa and the Easter Bunny is either mentally deluded or deliberately ignorant.


I agree wholeheartedly.


$1:
Now your reference to both South Africa and Ireland implies that the conflict was more religious than political which it was not. Just like the Israel Palestine issue which is more political than religious, these types of conflicts are very distinct from religious groups such as Al Qaida, Al Shabab, Boko Haram and ISIS who everyday murder, rape and destroy property in the singular uncompromising pursuit of promoting their interpretation of god's will.


You're wrong here. EVERYTHING is politics. Politics is the quest to gain and maintain power. You make it sound as if these groups just want to kill off the others and then go back home to their old lives; they don't. They want to seize power and maintain it and in that respect they're no different than the Khmer Rouge, the Contras, the Viet Cong, the IRA, the RPF or any number of other militants throughout history.

Which brings me to my next point, which I hope NFiddle, Martin and some of the other right-wingers pay special attention to: who is it who is spilling their blood fighting these groups on the ground? Who is it that is being crucified, beheaded, raped and murdered? The vast majority of people who are being killed by ISIS and their ilk are MUSLIMS. The people who are fighting them on the ground in Iraq and Syria, and in many cases have been fighting them for decades in places like Somalia and Afghanistan are MUSLIMS. I think it's easy for people on the right to forget that inconvenient fact.

I've said it before, I'll say it again: These radical militant Islamists are just one small subset of Muslims. The fact that all Californians are American doesn't mean that all Americans are Californian and so people from Alabama don't need to answer for what Californians do. Similarly non-militant Muslims don't need to answer for what militant Muslims are doing; especially since THEY are the primary victims of these militants.

So many of the right-wing blanket statements about Muslims (much of which can be found in your OP) effectively say that:

- the people being massacred by ISIS (and who are fighting them on the ground as you read this) are answerable for the crimes being committed AGAINST THEM

- that YOU, snug as a bug in your North American home and far from any danger, are the real victims (and also the real heroes, fighting terror by posting on the internet and all)

- that the people being slaughtered by ISIS, owe YOU an apology and assurances, because THEY are being slaughtered (even though you'll just throw it back in their face with sarcasm anyway).

R=UP And just to be better than Andy
R=UP


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 7:29 am
 


Zipperfish Zipperfish:
andyt andyt:
How do you square that circle? By saying the two realms are separate? Don't they have to meet at some point? I think they do, but that point is beyond our current ability to understand.

Anyway, according to GFPB you're just deluded or ignorant.



Well technically sceince does not deal with teh supernatural. But supernatural is really well defined.

They are separate in that the truths of religion or ancient, revealed and eternal, whereas the truths of science are uncovered and provisional. Part of teh faith of science is that theories must accord with independent observation. Then again, independent observation seesm to fall apart at teh quantum level.


Lots that was deemed supernatural is now explained by science. this is where the atheists get all haughty and figure at some point science will explain everything. Supernatural just seems to be defined by science - ie that which is not explained by it. I don't like the term myself.

As for religious truth being eternal, I have some problem there too. There we get the conflict between evolution and creationism say, with creationists insisting their beliefs are as valid as evolution.

I think many of us can feel that there is something beyond our everyday perceptions - ephemeral but very real at the same time. And sometimes quantum physics seems to point at something like that. Personally I think there is a universal intelligence that pervades the universe, that essentially makes up the universe. Since this intelligence is infinite, how can I really know it, or try to tell people about it.

That's where the problem comes in with so many religious. Christians admit God is beyond comprehension, we should not see ourselves equal to God, yet so many Christians are so eager to tell us that God told them to make women get vaginal inspections before abortions, or that God hates gays, or wants us to invade a certain country or all the other crap that's flung about. Muslims are even worse, but all religions seem to do this to one extent or another. It would be really nice if religionists practiced the humility they talk about, but which is so rare.

Then come the atheist know it alls like GFPB who just know that any belief in the divine is just insanity or willful ignorance. They know that they are right. As I said, other side of the coin of the religious I described above.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 7:35 am
 


andyt andyt:
Lots that was deemed supernatural is now explained by science. this is where the atheists get all haughty and figure at some point science will explain everything. Supernatural just seems to be defined by science - ie that which is not explained by it. I don't like the term myself.

As for religious truth being eternal, I have some problem there too. There we get the conflict between evolution and creationism say, with creationists insisting their beliefs are as valid as evolution.

I think many of us can feel that there is something beyond our everyday perceptions - ephemeral but very real at the same time. And sometimes quantum physics seems to point at something like that. Personally I think there is a universal intelligence that pervades the universe, that essentially makes up the universe. Since this intelligence is infinite, how can I really know it, or try to tell people about it.

That's where the problem comes in with so many religious. Christians admit God is beyond comprehension, we should not see ourselves equal to God, yet so many Christians are so eager to tell us that God told them to make women get vaginal inspections before abortions, or that God hates gays, or wants us to invade a certain country or all the other crap that's flung about. Muslims are even worse, but all religions seem to do this to one extent or another. It would be really nice if religionists practiced the humility they talk about, but which is so rare.

Then come the atheist know it alls like GFPB who just know that any belief in the divine is just insanity or willful ignorance. They know that they are right. As I said, other side of the coin of the religious I described above.



Ooops--that was supposed to read "suprnatural _isn't_ well definied." Changes the meaning slightly. ha ha ha

My problem with religion is similar--the truths were written thousands of years ago and just sound silly today, with the goats and stuff.

On the other hand, now that sceince and religion have lost their apepal to authority we live in an essentially demoralized society. A demoralized society cannot make decisions, even when presented with authentic information, which is where I feel we are at now.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 7:44 am
 


I guess we need that authority. Somebody to tell us what to do. Wonder if we'll just retreat to another authority (race hatred seems to be the cause du jour) or finally find an internal guide. And not one that says "I am the greatest."


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 7:53 am
 


andyt andyt:
I guess we need that authority. Somebody to tell us what to do. Wonder if we'll just retreat to another authority (race hatred seems to be the cause du jour) or finally find an internal guide. And not one that says "I am the greatest."


Yeah who knows. I'm reading "The Source" by Robert Michener right now, tracing the Jews from pre-history to the present. They stuck to their moral authority. They were forbidden many times from genital mutilation, but insisted on its practice anyways, on pain of death by the lash, or the crucifix or the fire.

And here they are, the one common thread in some 40 centuries of human history.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 9:20 am
 


Zipperfish Zipperfish:
andyt andyt:
I guess we need that authority. Somebody to tell us what to do. Wonder if we'll just retreat to another authority (race hatred seems to be the cause du jour) or finally find an internal guide. And not one that says "I am the greatest."


Yeah who knows. I'm reading "The Source" by Robert Michener right now, tracing the Jews from pre-history to the present. They stuck to their moral authority. They were forbidden many times from genital mutilation, but insisted on its practice anyways, on pain of death by the lash, or the crucifix or the fire.

And here they are, the one common thread in some 40 centuries of human history.

That's James A. Good book even if I read it in high school.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 9:25 am
 


Me too. All I remember from it is the Arabs running away from the Israelis yelling "atoomi boombi"


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