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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2015 8:20 pm
 


Muslims are about the most flagrant in praying, with the prostrations and verbalizing. They also seem to have the most rigid code about when to pray. So certainly harder to accommodate than others, but many places do it, shouldn't really be a problem. It would be nice is most places provide a quiet refuge for prayer and contemplation.

I had to look up Sikhs, they also have daily prayers, but do them morning, evening and before bed, so easier to fit in the day. They also don't seem to have to do them out loud.


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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2015 9:23 pm
 


I don't often agree with Levant, but he is right on this one - this is total garbage.


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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2015 10:30 pm
 


maybe a take that's less inflammatory:

http://globalnews.ca/news/1950391/paren ... -decision/

not as much fun tho.


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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2015 7:22 am
 


andyt andyt:
maybe a take that's less inflammatory:

http://globalnews.ca/news/1950391/paren ... -decision/

not as much fun tho.


Same story from the other side.

I don't agree with Ezra very often since he went off the deep end at Sun news, but I agree with him on this one. There was a huge contreoversey during the last generation about prayer in schools. It was ultimately banned, schools were deemed secular and there was much wailing of teh End Times by the Christian social conservatives. I don't understand hopw the Human Rights board in Alberta could have completely ignored that entire social upheaval in their decision. Not even mentioned in the entire decision.

This is why freedom of religion needs to be pulled out of the Constitution. It essentially grants a special class of rights to Muslims, Christinas, Jews etc, that the rest of us don't get. I have sincerely held beliefs. One of them is a secular nation where there is a separation between church and state. But that is to a sincerely held religious belief, and therefore, as a belief, it is deemed of a lower class by the law.


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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2015 7:45 am
 


You're making the same mistake that PA9 does, in that you can't see the distinction between a teacher leading a prayer in class, making it something students have to participate in (or be embarrassed by asking to leave), vs individuals choosing to pray on their own time on school property. The latter is just freedom of expression as far as I'm concerned, and should be accommodated if reasonably able to do so.

And Ezra and the CZA bunch wouldn't have taken the same position if this was a group of Christians who wanted to find a place to get together and pray.

I thought I agreed with you about not needing freedom of religion in the charter, but this shows me that I think we do need it. Shutting down individual prayer completely doesn't cut it for me. It's reasonable to say it should not be done where it disturbs others, but surely they could have found some corner for them where they can do their thing.


Last edited by andyt on Thu May 14, 2015 7:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2015 7:48 am
 


andyt andyt:

And Ezra and the CZA bunch wouldn't have taken the same position if this was a group of Christians who wanted to find a place to get together and pray.


But you would be shitting kittens and not nearly as accommodating if it was Christians. :roll:

You're a bullshitting hypocrite.


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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2015 9:19 am
 


You know he'd take the opposite stance....that's the SOP for a troll. TAB


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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2015 9:36 am
 


It's unfortunately becoming true though in the US. Evangelicals and fundies are gaining ground as right-wing politicians are starting to introduce laws that will allow them to opt-out of basic secular rules and regulations if their beliefs are 'sincere' enough. No other way to describe this than as anything but a Christian version of sharia.


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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2015 9:46 am
 


andyt andyt:
You're making the same mistake that PA9 does, in that you can't see the distinction between a teacher leading a prayer in class, making it something students have to participate in (or be embarrassed by asking to leave), vs individuals choosing to pray on their own time on school property. The latter is just freedom of expression as far as I'm concerned, and should be accommodated if reasonably able to do so.


Yeah, well the problem is, then you get "we need three prayer rooms for the two genders and the unclean women" and "we need an imam." Pretty sure the "thin edge of the wedge" was what was in the back of the mind for the school.

This is where i liked Levant's "shield vs sword" analogy. I'm in favour of protecting people's sincerely held religious beliefs (shield) but not imposing a duty on everyone else to accommodate them (sword).


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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2015 9:51 am
 


Zipperfish Zipperfish:
andyt andyt:
You're making the same mistake that PA9 does, in that you can't see the distinction between a teacher leading a prayer in class, making it something students have to participate in (or be embarrassed by asking to leave), vs individuals choosing to pray on their own time on school property. The latter is just freedom of expression as far as I'm concerned, and should be accommodated if reasonably able to do so.


Yeah, well the problem is, then you get "we need three prayer rooms for the two genders and the unclean women" and "we need an imam." Pretty sure this was what was in the back of the mind for the school.



So don't even make reasonable accommodations because "give them an inch they'll take a mile." I think we're stronger than that. If we can re-write our laws to prevent reasonable accommodation, we can even easier re-write them to prevent the over the top stuff.

The two families appear to have moved on, so I'm not sure paranoia about this being a plan to insert the camel's nose in the tent is warranted. Maybe just breathe.


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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2015 9:51 am
 


andyt andyt:
You're making the same mistake that PA9 does, in that you can't see the distinction between a teacher leading a prayer in class, making it something students have to participate in (or be embarrassed by asking to leave), vs individuals choosing to pray on their own time on school property.

What a load of codswallop. "Or be embarrassed by asking them to leave". Are you for serious? When they still had prayer in school, no one was asked to leave if they didn't want to take part, they simply had permission not to take part. I sure don't recall any of them looking very sheepish about it.
Speaking of people who can't make distinctions. :roll:

However, in this case I think the school did screw up. The current ban is on ORGANIZED prayer in school. There's no law that says individuals can't pray of their own accord. It's not like this is another Valley Park Middle School where despite the ban on organized prayer in public schools, they have organized religious instruction during school hours.
Another distinction that you utterly fail to recognize.


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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2015 9:57 am
 


Is the ban on organized prayer, or on school led prayer in the classroom? What exactly is organized prayer? Would they be required to all face different directions to make appear disorganized?

No one was asked to leave when Christian prayers were led by the school. But the argument was that students who wanted to leave would be subject to ridicule. Christians are free to ask for the same accommodation as the Muslims in Ontario schools if they want it. If the school says no, that would be a good argument for shutting down the Muslim prayer as well, IMO. If Christians want to pray at the beginning of the school day, with this Muslim deal they have a very powerful argument that a room should be set aside for them for the purpose.


Last edited by andyt on Thu May 14, 2015 9:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2015 9:57 am
 


The only school where we should be having prayer is a Sunday School, or the equivalency that other faiths have of it. Outside of private religious schools, religion should only be discussed in the context of social studies. Holidays like Easter and Christmas have really transcended their religious origins, as there are plenty of non Christians who celebrate the holidays as a family rather than religious holiday. There are some idiots who would have us do away with them. Why(shit for brains shit disturbers - TAB)? They were pre Christian holidays Europeans coopted after conversion and they're evolving into post Christian holidays as is.


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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2015 10:17 am
 


andyt andyt:
So don't even make reasonable accommodations because "give them an inch they'll take a mile." I think we're stronger than that. If we can re-write our laws to prevent reasonable accommodation, we can even easier re-write them to prevent the over the top stuff.

The two families appear to have moved on, so I'm not sure paranoia about this being a plan to insert the camel's nose in the tent is warranted. Maybe just breathe.


Maybe they're a bunch of rednecks at the school, or maybe the students/parents were permanently aggrieved. Guaranteed someone somewhere was playing silly bugger. That'll all come out in the wash, is my guess. Hard to tell given some of the BS floated by both parteis in this dispute.

My sympathy for Muslims is limited, especially give the Supreme Court ruling tyo prihibit some Christian prayer opening some council meeting the same week. Sends a lovely signal, doesn't it?


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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2015 10:38 am
 


Zipperfish Zipperfish:
Maybe they're a bunch of rednecks at the school, or maybe the students/parents were permanently aggrieved. Guaranteed someone somewhere was playing silly bugger. That'll all come out in the wash, is my guess. Hard to tell given some of the BS floated by both parteis in this dispute.

My sympathy for Muslims is limited, especially give the Supreme Court ruling tyo prihibit some Christian prayer opening some council meeting the same week. Sends a lovely signal, doesn't it?

Sandorski's post on the previous page fairly well nails it. It's a hell of a distinction between allowing someone time and space to retire from the institution's activities to practise their religion and making religious practise part of an institution's activities. The SC ruling on council meetings (and they got it right) is clearly the latter.


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