[andyt]

martin14 wrote:

andyt wrote:

Guy_Fawkes wrote:

Wasn't it the Muslims who preserved Greek knowledge through the dark ages?

They didn't just preserve but added to it. There's a reason we use Arabic numerals for our maths.

And thankfully nothing else for the past 1200 years.

Why thankfully. You don't think it would have been better if the Muslims had also advanced like we did?

[martin14]

andyt wrote:

martin14 wrote:

andyt wrote:

They didn't just preserve but added to it. There's a reason we use Arabic numerals for our maths.

And thankfully nothing else for the past 1200 years.

Why thankfully. You don't think it would have been better if the Muslims had also advanced like we did?

Doesnt matter, they didn't.


Most things we consider normal in our society was begun or created in Christian countries.

Democratic Parliament
Bills of Rights
Constitutions
the Renaissance
Age of Enlightenment (science)
which includes virtually all the technical advancements of our society
secret ballot
Ending Slavery
Universal Suffrage

All things even today routinely ignored by Islam.



So, thankfully, we took nothing else except numbers

[andyt]

martin14 wrote:

So, thankfully, we took nothing else except numbers

And he mathematics that went with those numbers. Probably played a role in our technological advances. Likely our architecture was influenced by the Muslims too. And who knows what else.

Quote:

Islamic contributions to Medieval Europe were numerous, affecting such varied areas as art, architecture, medicine, agriculture, music, language, education, law, and technology. From the 11th to 13th centuries, Europe absorbed knowledge from the Islamic civilization. Of particular importance was the rediscovery of the ancient classic texts, most notably the work of the Greek natural philosopher Aristotle, through retranslations from Arabic. In the early 20th century the musicologist Henry George Farmer wrote that a "growing number of scholars...recognize(d) that the influence of the Muslim civilization as a whole on medieval Europe was enormous in such fields as science, philosophy, theology, literature, aesthetics, than has been recognized."[2] For one historian the contributions from the Islamic world have had a considerable effect on the development of Western civilization and contributed to the achievements of the Renaissance.[3]

(Wiki)

So all those things we came up with, good chance we would not have without that Muslim influence, or at least taken us a lot longer. Gotta give credit where credit is due.

[martin14]

Quote:

Of particular importance was the rediscovery of the ancient classic texts, most notably the work of the Greek natural philosopher Aristotle, through retranslations from Arabic.

They didnt 'invent' anything, just copied what was found/stolen from the Greeks.

[andyt]

martin14 wrote:

Quote:

Of particular importance was the rediscovery of the ancient classic texts, most notably the work of the Greek natural philosopher Aristotle, through retranslations from Arabic.

They didnt 'invent' anything, just copied what was found/stolen from the Greeks.

Bullshit. You're letting your hatred skew your opinions.

Quote:

Islam was not, however, a simple re-transmitter of knowledge from antiquity. It also developed its own sciences, such as algebra, chemistry, geology, spherical trigonometry, etc. which were later also transmitted to the West.

Quote:

As to the mathematics of Islam, Professor Victor J. Katz states that "from the time of the Renaissance, Europeans were aware that algebra was not only an Arabic word, but also essentially an Islamic creation. Most early algebra works in Europe in fact recognized that the first algebra works in that continent were translations of the work of al-Khwärizmï and other Islamic authors. There was also some awareness that much of plane and spherical trigonometry could be attributed to Islamic authors".[14]

Quote:

One of the most important medical works to be translated was Avicenna's The Canon of Medicine (1025), which was translated into Latin and then disseminated in manuscript and printed form throughout Europe. It remained a standard medical textbook in Europe up until the early modern period, and during the 15th and 16th centuries alone, The Canon of Medicine was published more than thirty-five times.[19] It introduced the contagious nature of infectious diseases, the method of quarantine, experimental medicine, and clinical trials.[20]

Quote:

Numerous new techniques in clothing, as well as new materials were also introduced: muslin, taffetas, satin, skirts. Trade mechanisms were also transmitted: tariffs, customs, bazars, magazins.

Quote:

A number of musical instruments used in classical music are believed to have been derived from Arabic musical instruments: the lute was derived from the al'ud , the rebec (ancestor of violin) from the rebab, the guitar from qitara, naker from naqareh, adufe from al-duff, alboka from al-buq, anafil from al-nafir, exabeba from al-shabbaba (flute), atabal (bass drum) from al-tabl, atambal from al-tinbal,[60] the balaban, the castanet from kasatan, sonajas de azófar from sunuj al-sufr, the conical bore wind instruments,[61] the xelami from the sulami or fistula (flute or musical pipe),[62] the shawm and dulzaina from the reed instruments zamr and al-zurna,[63] the gaita from the ghaita, rackett from iraqya or iraqiyya,[64] the harp and zither from the qanun canon from qanun, geige (violin) from ghichak,[65] and the theorbo from the tarab.[66]

Quote:

The Muslim Agricultural Revolution in particular diffused a large number of crops and technologies into medieval Europe, where farming was mostly restricted to wheat strains obtained much earlier via central Asia. Spain received what she in turn transmitted to the rest of Europe; many agricultural and fruit-growing processes,

[martin14]

And you are letting your apologist stance here show through, just like
sucking up to that Egyptian troll with his music a few days ago.


The pre - Muslim ancient Egyptians also had a fairly complicated system of mathematics, like algebra
and geometry.

Arab is not Muslim, so your instruments are moot.

Canon of Medicine ?


ok, I rephrase...

Thankfully, we haven't accepted anything from Islam for the last THOUSAND years.


Happy now ?

[andyt]

martin14 wrote:

And you are letting your apologist stance here show through, just like
sucking up to that Egyptian troll with his music a few days ago.


The pre - Muslim ancient Egyptians also had a fairly complicated system of mathematics, like algebra
and geometry.

Arab is not Muslim, so your instruments are moot.

Canon of Medicine ?


ok, I rephrase...

Thankfully, we haven't accepted anything from Islam for the last THOUSAND years.


Happy now ?

Wow, you really are sick. That Egyptian guy started off completely reasonable, and I happen to like Sufi music, so I engaged him on that. To you that's apologism. You are badly indoctrinated. Guess you just have to spew hate and nothing else about Islam.

The Babyloninans also had a sophisticated mathematics. We owe a lot of it to India. But each made advances, including the Muslims. Each new mathematics built on the knowledge of the older ones, as did ours. You know - I've been able to see so far because I was sitting on the shoulders of giants.

Arabs are Muslims and developed those instruments that we then adapted further. But you want to nit pick about it, fine. Just makes you look small.

Really no point in discussing this with you, as your hatred is just too overwhelming for you to have a rational pov on this. And to call giving credit where credit is due being an apologist, that's just madness. What are you, a Serb or something, that can't let go of his blood hatred?

[martin14]

Andy, if you knew anything, you would know that Sufi isnt popular in Egypt,
it's practised in Morocco and Turkey. Iran forbids it.

Quote:

The Babyloninans also had a sophisticated mathematics. We owe a lot of it to India. But each made advances, including the Muslims.

So you have only disproved your earlier assertion that we couldnt have developed these things without Muslims.
I provided one example with the ancient Egyptians you just added to it.





wow, what a quick reduction to personal attacks.

Guess you've got nothing else.

[andyt]

martin14 wrote:

Andy, if you knew anything, you would know that Sufi isnt popular in Egypt,
it's practised in Morocco and Turkey. Iran forbids it.

Quote:

The Babyloninans also had a sophisticated mathematics. We owe a lot of it to India. But each made advances, including the Muslims.

So you have only disproved your earlier assertion that we couldnt have developed these things without Muslims.
I provided one example with the ancient Egyptians you just added to it.





wow, what a quick reduction to personal attacks.

Guess you've got nothing else.

I don't know where Sufi is popular. Just trying to meet the guy with his stated interest. And I'm sure that some of the stuff I've heard isn't Sufi but Arabic folk. I just don't know where to find it.

You really have a narrow view. Everybody contributed - the Muslems learned from earlier civilizations, we learned from the Muslims. You're really trying to twist yourself into knots here trying to not give the Muslims due credit. As I said, maybe we would have made our discoveries without the Muslin influence, but it would have taken us a lot longer, and by that time another civilization might have come to dominate. Only a small twist of fate that we're not all giving homage to our Chinese overlords right now - they were set to conquer the world just as we started our explorations.

As for personal attacks, you called me an apolgist. What's that?

You know, I once had a conversation with a Muslim from Yugoslavia (don't Croatian, I think) He did exactly what you're doing here, except in reverse. According to him, the Greeks didn't invent anything, it was all the Muslims. Very bitter man. You guys are tow sides of the same coin.

[Taseko]

andyt wrote:

martin14 wrote:

You really have a narrow view. Everybody contributed - the Muslems learned from earlier civilizations, we learned from the Muslims.

Islam is one of the worlds great religions. Second to only to Christianity which has the largest number of adherents. Islam is a derivative of Christianity. Judaism, Christianity and Islam are all "Abrahamic" religions. All can be pretty much identified as hating one another's guts.

But you all know this.

Within Christianity there are about 38,000 plus different churches, cults and derivatives of the same God. These believers pretty much have have the idea that they alone have the truth, and all the others will go to hell. This could alone could stand as a identifier.

Some Christians are really nice people, some aren't. Christianity has most certainly created some Saints and some really ugly pigs.

The same can be said of Islam.

Religion has it's problems. They like to kill one another occasionally.

There is no advantage in being religious. It hasn't been proven to bring peace (Middle East!), it hasn't improved morality (The revelations of the Catholic Priests abuses etc.).

[martin14]

Quote:

I don't know where Sufi is popular.

See, you learn something new every day.

Quote:

As for personal attacks, you called me an apolgist. What's that?

Scroll up, how quickly they forget.... it's even on the same page..

Quote:

Bullshit. You're letting your hatred skew your opinions.

Quote:

You know, I once had a conversation with a Muslim from Yugoslavia (don't Croatian, I think)

This was funny.. I'll PM you about that, its not for public consumption.

But I'll guess your guy is from Bosnia.


One guy I study Italian with is Greek. He is convinced everything
in Italian is originally a Greek word.. he is funny as hell.


Anyway, I'll end with stating my list was social developments,
and I did mention 1000 years a couple of times.
What have they done for us lately ?

[andyt]

No, I'm pretty sure he was from Croatia. I'm sure you know that not all the Muslims are in Bosnia, especially during Tito's time. This guy had been a high beurocrat in the Tito govt.

[andyt]

martin14 wrote:

Anyway, I'll end with stating my list was social developments,
and I did mention 1000 years a couple of times.
What have they done for us lately ?

Nothing. On that we're agreed. Or more importantly, what have they done for themselves.

[martin14]

andyt wrote:

martin14 wrote:

Anyway, I'll end with stating my list was social developments,
and I did mention 1000 years a couple of times.
What have they done for us lately ?

Nothing. On that we're agreed. Or more importantly, what have they done for themselves.

Sadly, even less.


If your guy was around for Tito then its more possible for him to be a Croat.

He must also be pretty old.

[sandorski]

Modern day Islam is the perfect example of what happens to a Culture when they just decide to reject Science/Knowledge one day. Their ascent to Civilization came to an abrupt halt when it was suddenly decided that certain pursuits were not Islamic.