[Guy_Fawkes]

Sorry Brenda I just wanted to move this conversation to a different thread.

Brenda wrote:

Guy_Fawkes wrote:

Brenda wrote:

That's one moving story...

How ironic, that the first baby born from 9-11 widows, is Muslim...

How can a baby be Muslim?

The same way a baby is Jewish, or Catholic.
If you think religion is a conscious choice, you're wrong.

This baby was born from Muslim parents. How can it NOT be Muslim?

My point is that the child is born without a religion, and that being anything is something that some parents thrust on them. Just because the parents are of a faith shouldnt mean the child is, you would not say that a child of two gay parents is a gay baby.

[BartSimpson]

Obama was born to a Muslim father and under the laws of many Islamic countries he is therefore a Muslim.

Just saying.

[Guy_Fawkes]

BartSimpson wrote:

Obama was born to a Muslim father and under the laws of many Islamic countries he is therefore a Muslim.

Just saying.

Yes and in some Muslim countries women are second class citizens.

Religion is a system of beliefs, and until a person can make an informed claim that those beliefs as their own, they should be considered neutral.

Just sayin....

[Canadian_Mind]

BartSimpson wrote:

Obama was born to a Muslim father and under the laws of many Islamic countries he is therefore a Muslim.

Just saying.

Thrust on him, as it were.

[Brenda]

Guy_Fawkes wrote:

Sorry Brenda I just wanted to move this conversation to a different thread.

Brenda wrote:

Guy_Fawkes wrote:

How can a baby be Muslim?

The same way a baby is Jewish, or Catholic.
If you think religion is a conscious choice, you're wrong.

This baby was born from Muslim parents. How can it NOT be Muslim?

My point is that the child is born without a religion, and that being anything is something that some parents thrust on them. Just because the parents are of a faith shouldnt mean the child is, you would not say that a child of two gay parents is a gay baby.

A child of 2 gay parents is non-existent.

My 2 nephews are Jewish because their mom is. My brother is not. They do not practice this religion. A baby is what the parents choose it to be. My kids are Dutch. Maybe they won't be once they turn 18. Do not twist it around, and say babies have a choice. Adults do.

Anyway, if you want to make this a thread about religion, fine, but not like this. Thanks.

[Guy_Fawkes]

Having a nationality is different, you cant have a Christian passport. My point about gay parents still stands when they adopt a child.

You cant, and shouldnt, label what belief system a person has when they are not able to comprehend those beliefs. If person decides that a certain belief system is a fit for them by all means go for it, but we dont have gay babies, conservative babies, creationist babies so we shouldnt have Jewish babies.

Im not saying babies have a choice, just that no one should make the choice for them. If you wanted to present your beliefs to your children go right ahead, but you should also present other religions as well. I just see it as wrong if you declare them something which takes a person years to discover.

[Brenda]

That is your way of raising your child. (as it is mine, btw) BUT, that does not give you the right to tell other people how to raise theirs.

Conservative people will not raise their children liberal. Non-religious people will not raise their children religious, and religious people will not raise them as Atheists. That's just the way it is. Would you like to ban all those that do not agree with your ideology from having children? Would you tell every body that YOUR way is the only way?

[Guy_Fawkes]

I never said any of that, I am actually saying the opposite. All babies are born neutral, forcing your opinion on them so that they behave like you is wrong. You should not label them, leave their spirituality up to them, answer their questions on different religions. If you want to bring your child to church, mosque, or temple go right ahead, but if they find out what religion they are by themselves.

[Brenda]

When they are grown up, they can do what ever they want. Until then, not so much.
Unless of course you would like them to figure out themselves what's best for them from day 1?
What you are saying is with "forcing your opinion on them is wrong" is that we should give them a choice always, and let them decide. I don't think that is really a good idea when they are at the stove, trying to feel if it is hot or not. Or when they see a cup of tea and want a sip. Or when they find a screwdriver and a socket.
Childrens brains are not made for that kind of responsibility. That is why we do not lay eggs and leave them, but give live birth and raise our youngsters.

[PublicAnimalNo9]

Brenda wrote:

Childrens brains are not made for that kind of responsibility.

Exactly, nor are their brains made for comprehending what religion even is at that age. Babies and young children CANNOT be a specific religion as they didn't make that choice, because they are unable to make that choice.
Labelling a child by the religion of their parents is as dumb as calling the baby of some KKK shithead a racist.

[Guy_Fawkes]

Brenda wrote:

When they are grown up, they can do what ever they want. Until then, not so much.
Unless of course you would like them to figure out themselves what's best for them from day 1?
What you are saying is with "forcing your opinion on them is wrong" is that we should give them a choice always, and let them decide. I don't think that is really a good idea when they are at the stove, trying to feel if it is hot or not. Or when they see a cup of tea and want a sip. Or when they find a screwdriver and a socket.
Childrens brains are not made for that kind of responsibility. That is why we do not lay eggs and leave them, but give live birth and raise our youngsters.

We are talking about spiritual belief not driving a car, using a butcher knife or handling a hand gun.

A person's views about their religion can change over time, but starting them off at birth with what religion to follow is limiting them. If Anne at 6 years old says she wants to be a Christian like Mommy and Daddy, that's great and I support that. She made a decision base on the information she has to select a belief she feels mimics her own, or one she wants to aspire to. However, if Anne at 7 starts to ask questions about Asatha, and her Hindu beliefs I think it is a parents duty to help her explore that faith as well.

[Brenda]

Religion, or non-religion for that matter, is a matter of perspective, just like everything is when you raise a child. You teach them right from wrong in the legal way, and you teach them what you think is best.

That you think it is best to teach them every aspect of every religion at a young age, does not mean I think that way. Maybe I don't want them to have anything to do with religion, maybe I think that is something they can figure out when they are old enough to make up their own minds, and that they should explore in their own way without me butting in.

I hope you realize I play devil's advocate here, because I am one that teaches her kids everything they want to know, including religion (all of them), if they were interested, as well as sexuality and drugs.

But that does not mean that everybody chooses to do it my way, or even agrees.

[ShepherdsDog]

Quote:

You teach them right from wrong in the legal way

i'd like to think that parents are teaching children what's right and wrong on an ethical level as well.

[Brenda]

ShepherdsDog wrote:

Quote:

You teach them right from wrong in the legal way

i'd like to think that parents are teaching children what's right and wrong on an ethical level as well.

Well, there you go. Ethics are subjective...

[Guy_Fawkes]

Brenda wrote:

Religion, or non-religion for that matter, is a matter of perspective, just like everything is when you raise a child. You teach them right from wrong in the legal way, and you teach them what you think is best.

That you think it is best to teach them every aspect of every religion at a young age, does not mean I think that way. Maybe I don't want them to have anything to do with religion, maybe I think that is something they can figure out when they are old enough to make up their own minds, and that they should explore in their own way without me butting in.

That is pretty much how I feel, answer their questions, or help them discover their own answers. Just try not to steer them into something you know is best for them. Im not a fan of absolutes, especially when it comes to religion.

Brenda wrote:

I hope you realize I play devil's advocate here, because I am one that teaches her kids everything they want to know, including religion (all of them), if they were interested, as well as sexuality and drugs.

I realise that, and I suspected as much since I know you are a wonderful parent Brenda. It just doesnt sit right with me, stamping a child with a religion before they can even speak.

Things like sending a child to Sunday school is great, I just find that you are putting a child as a disadvantage if that is the only exposure you are giving them to religion.