[Zipperfish]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

Bart Bart:

Snow in Baghdad for the first time in 35 years:

Hey--here's a blast from the past:

Ice Age Now

he's bringing back the old ice age scare! Global warming is so yesterday.

Just curious, but how do you refute photographic evidence of the ice getting thicker in at least that part of Antarctica?

Really, if there's such a crisis, shouldn't that crane and those telephone poles not be under threat of totally disappearing under the ice?

If the picture is what the guy says it is, then there's no refuting that snow or ice is accumulating in that area. I don't think that its contradictory to say that the snow/ice can be accumulating in some areas and receding in others. In the article I linked to, I believe that the writer linked the overall loss of mass to warmer waters melting glaciers in coastal areas.

In other words: WE'RE ALL DOOMED!!!!!

[BartSimpson]

Yep, in the 10,000 or 20,000 years it'll take before all that ice finally melts we'll be doomed.

[PluggyRug]

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

Bart Bart:

Snow in Baghdad for the first time in 35 years:

Hey--here's a blast from the past:

Ice Age Now

he's bringing back the old ice age scare! Global warming is so yesterday.

Just curious, but how do you refute photographic evidence of the ice getting thicker in at least that part of Antarctica?

Really, if there's such a crisis, shouldn't that crane and those telephone poles not be under threat of totally disappearing under the ice?

If the picture is what the guy says it is, then there's no refuting that snow or ice is accumulating in that area. I don't think that its contradictory to say that the snow/ice can be accumulating in some areas and receding in others. In the article I linked to, I believe that the writer linked the overall loss of mass to warmer waters melting glaciers in coastal areas.

In other words: WE'RE ALL DOOMED!!!!!

Think it's time to put ski's on my boat.

[N_Fiddledog]

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

Antarctic ice sheet shrinking rapidly (Globe and Mail, Jan 15 2008)

$1:

One of the biggest worries about global warming has been its potential to affect the stability of the Antarctic ice sheet, a vast storehouse of frozen water that would inundate the world's coastal regions if it were to melt because of a warming climate.

The southern continent contains enough ice to raise ocean levels by about 60 metres, a deluge that would put every major coastal city in the world deep under water and uproot hundreds of millions of people.

The huge implications posed by the health of the ice sheet have prompted major scientific interest into whether it is growing, shrinking, or stable, with no clear consensus among researchers about its overall trend.

But a new study released yesterday, based on some of the most extensive measurements to date of the continent's ice mass, presents a worrisome development: Antarctica's ice sheet is shrinking, at a rate that increased dramatically from 1996 to 2006.

"Over the time period of our survey, the ice sheet as a whole was certainly losing mass, and the mass loss increased by 75 per cent in 10 years," the study said.

Let's do some dueling links.

$1:

Once again today we were told in the media that the antarctic ice is melting at an increasing and alarming rate. The story appeared in many papers including the Washington Post and the UK Globe Mail today based on a research project, led by Eric Rignot, principal scientist for the Radar Science and Engineering Section at NASA’s Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, California, and appearing in the current issue of Nature Geoscience. In an e-mail, Dr. Rignot attributed the shrinkage in the ice sheet to an upwelling of warm waters along the Antarctic coast, which is causing some glaciers to flow more rapidly into the ocean. He suspects the trend is due to global warming.

This seemed odd coming shortly after reports that the Southern Hemisphere (Antarctica) set a record for the MAXIMUM extent of ice since satellite monitoring began in 1979 this year. We thought we would take a look at the latest NSIDC graphs for southern hemispheric ice extent.

[Graphs at link]

I will remind you it is mid-summer in the Southern Hemisphere. Ice extent remains well (one million square kilometers) above the 28 year average and an impressive 3 million square kilometers above last year at this time!. There is clearly a lot of year to year variability in the record but the demise of the Antartic icecap seems to be anything but imminent. Most of the warming and melt in recent years has been in the vicinity of the Antarctic Peninsula, a small portion of the Antarctic which reaches above the Antarctic Circle and is a choke-point for the circumpolar ocean currents, and is more susceptible to variations. There’s also an active subsea volcano in the area, perhaps leading to the warm water upwelling in the study.

Source

Also...

$1:

Our guess is it'll be at least next week before competing statistics says the Antarctic is
gaining ice mass. What isn't highlighted in this piece is that this again relies on
PlayStation® climatology -- compared with models the WAIS appears to be losing mass.
Meanwhile JunkScience reader M O'R has beaten us to checking the data, pointing out
that the Antarctic Peninsula (the region of alleged ice loss) shows dramatic cooling over
the last year and providing the following:
Five GISS Stations To The North And East Coast Of The West Antarctic Peninsula
70188968000 BASE ORCADAS -60.75 -44.72 6 0R -9HIICCO 1x-9WATER
http://data.giss.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/
gistemp/gistemp_station.py?id=301889630008&data_set=1&num_neighbors=1
70089050000 BELLINGSHAUSE -62.20 -58.93 16 76R -9HIICCO 1x-9ANTARCTICA
A
http://data.giss.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/
gistemp/gistemp_station.py?id=700890500008&data_set=1&num_neighbors=1
30489056000 CENTRO MET.AN, Marsh -62.42 -58.88 10 0R -9HIICCO 1x-9ANTARCTICA
A
http://data.giss.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/
gistemp/gistemp_station.py?id=304890560008&data_set=1&num_neighbors=1
30188963000 BASE ESPERANZ -63.40 -56.98 13 45R -9HIICCO 1x-9WATER A
http://data.giss.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/
gistemp/gistemp_station.py?id=301889630008&data_set=1&num_neighbors=1
70089055000 CMS_VICE.DO.Marambio -64.23 -56.72 198 0R -9HIICCO 1x-9WATER
A
http://data.giss.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/
gistemp/gistemp_station.py?id=700890550008&data_set=1&num_neighbors=1
Three GISS Stations On The West Coast Of The West Antarctic Peninsula
70089063000 FARADAY -65.25 -64.27 11 0R -9HIICCO 1x-9WATER A
http://data.giss.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/
gistemp/gistemp_station.py?id=700890630008&data_set=1&num_neighbors=1
70089062000 ROTHERA POINT -67.57 -68.13 16 12R -9HIICCO 1x-9WATER A
http://data.giss.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/
gistemp/gistemp_station.py?id=700890620000&data_set=1&num_neighbors=1
70089066000 BASE SAN MARTIN -68.13 -67.13 4 233R -9MVICCO 1x-9WATER
Aഊhttp://data.giss.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/
gistemp/gistemp_station.py?id=700890660004&data_set=1&num_neighbors=1
Even providing a bookmark file for Google Earthers:

Appendum to that one from Icecap.

$1:

Icecap Note: That cooling was this year and there is no disputing as one emailer noted that warming has occurred near the Antarctic Peninsula in recent years while temperatures have been steady or cooling in the vast interior. Another email today to Icecap noted the following about the globe and mail story: “...after many paragraphs of scare mongering in the story you linked to, we have this nugget of truth in the LAST sentence in the story. “One encouraging finding from the study is that the largest ice sheet, the one covering East Antarctica, has remained relatively stable, showing a small net gain in size.” The untold fact left out of this global warming hysteria fear mongering piece of journalism is that the West Antarctic Ice Sheet is about 12% the size of the East Antarctic Ice sheet. The larger, growing East Antarctic Ice Sheet contains 26 million cubic kilometers of ice. The less stable West Antarctic Ice Sheet contains 3 million cubic kilometers of ice.”

http://icecap.us/index.php

[kenmore]

you guys saying global warming doesnt exist because it snowed need to get a life.. but I guess you come from the me generation and its all about you! read the recent reports of the antartic melting and how it will effect low lying coastal areas.. the effects of a diminishing rain forrest.. and on and on... sticking your heads up your ass isnt going to make it non existant..... \\...... because you deny a problem exists doesnt make it go away.....

[Zipperfish]

N_Fiddledog N_Fiddledog:

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

Antarctic ice sheet shrinking rapidly (Globe and Mail, Jan 15 2008)

$1:

One of the biggest worries about global warming has been its potential to affect the stability of the Antarctic ice sheet, a vast storehouse of frozen water that would inundate the world's coastal regions if it were to melt because of a warming climate.

The southern continent contains enough ice to raise ocean levels by about 60 metres, a deluge that would put every major coastal city in the world deep under water and uproot hundreds of millions of people.

The huge implications posed by the health of the ice sheet have prompted major scientific interest into whether it is growing, shrinking, or stable, with no clear consensus among researchers about its overall trend.

But a new study released yesterday, based on some of the most extensive measurements to date of the continent's ice mass, presents a worrisome development: Antarctica's ice sheet is shrinking, at a rate that increased dramatically from 1996 to 2006.

"Over the time period of our survey, the ice sheet as a whole was certainly losing mass, and the mass loss increased by 75 per cent in 10 years," the study said.

Let's do some dueling links.

$1:

Once again today we were told in the media that the antarctic ice is melting at an increasing and alarming rate. The story appeared in many papers including the Washington Post and the UK Globe Mail today based on a research project, led by Eric Rignot, principal scientist for the Radar Science and Engineering Section at NASA’s Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, California, and appearing in the current issue of Nature Geoscience. In an e-mail, Dr. Rignot attributed the shrinkage in the ice sheet to an upwelling of warm waters along the Antarctic coast, which is causing some glaciers to flow more rapidly into the ocean. He suspects the trend is due to global warming.

This seemed odd coming shortly after reports that the Southern Hemisphere (Antarctica) set a record for the MAXIMUM extent of ice since satellite monitoring began in 1979 this year. We thought we would take a look at the latest NSIDC graphs for southern hemispheric ice extent.

[Graphs at link]

I will remind you it is mid-summer in the Southern Hemisphere. Ice extent remains well (one million square kilometers) above the 28 year average and an impressive 3 million square kilometers above last year at this time!. There is clearly a lot of year to year variability in the record but the demise of the Antartic icecap seems to be anything but imminent. Most of the warming and melt in recent years has been in the vicinity of the Antarctic Peninsula, a small portion of the Antarctic which reaches above the Antarctic Circle and is a choke-point for the circumpolar ocean currents, and is more susceptible to variations. There’s also an active subsea volcano in the area, perhaps leading to the warm water upwelling in the study.

Source

Also...

$1:

Our guess is it'll be at least next week before competing statistics says the Antarctic is
gaining ice mass. What isn't highlighted in this piece is that this again relies on
PlayStation® climatology -- compared with models the WAIS appears to be losing mass.
Meanwhile JunkScience reader M O'R has beaten us to checking the data, pointing out
that the Antarctic Peninsula (the region of alleged ice loss) shows dramatic cooling over
the last year and providing the following:
Five GISS Stations To The North And East Coast Of The West Antarctic Peninsula
70188968000 BASE ORCADAS -60.75 -44.72 6 0R -9HIICCO 1x-9WATER
http://data.giss.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/
gistemp/gistemp_station.py?id=301889630008&data_set=1&num_neighbors=1
70089050000 BELLINGSHAUSE -62.20 -58.93 16 76R -9HIICCO 1x-9ANTARCTICA
A
http://data.giss.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/
gistemp/gistemp_station.py?id=700890500008&data_set=1&num_neighbors=1
30489056000 CENTRO MET.AN, Marsh -62.42 -58.88 10 0R -9HIICCO 1x-9ANTARCTICA
A
http://data.giss.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/
gistemp/gistemp_station.py?id=304890560008&data_set=1&num_neighbors=1
30188963000 BASE ESPERANZ -63.40 -56.98 13 45R -9HIICCO 1x-9WATER A
http://data.giss.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/
gistemp/gistemp_station.py?id=301889630008&data_set=1&num_neighbors=1
70089055000 CMS_VICE.DO.Marambio -64.23 -56.72 198 0R -9HIICCO 1x-9WATER
A
http://data.giss.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/
gistemp/gistemp_station.py?id=700890550008&data_set=1&num_neighbors=1
Three GISS Stations On The West Coast Of The West Antarctic Peninsula
70089063000 FARADAY -65.25 -64.27 11 0R -9HIICCO 1x-9WATER A
http://data.giss.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/
gistemp/gistemp_station.py?id=700890630008&data_set=1&num_neighbors=1
70089062000 ROTHERA POINT -67.57 -68.13 16 12R -9HIICCO 1x-9WATER A
http://data.giss.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/
gistemp/gistemp_station.py?id=700890620000&data_set=1&num_neighbors=1
70089066000 BASE SAN MARTIN -68.13 -67.13 4 233R -9MVICCO 1x-9WATER
Aഊhttp://data.giss.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/
gistemp/gistemp_station.py?id=700890660004&data_set=1&num_neighbors=1
Even providing a bookmark file for Google Earthers:

Appendum to that one from Icecap.

$1:

Icecap Note: That cooling was this year and there is no disputing as one emailer noted that warming has occurred near the Antarctic Peninsula in recent years while temperatures have been steady or cooling in the vast interior. Another email today to Icecap noted the following about the globe and mail story: “...after many paragraphs of scare mongering in the story you linked to, we have this nugget of truth in the LAST sentence in the story. “One encouraging finding from the study is that the largest ice sheet, the one covering East Antarctica, has remained relatively stable, showing a small net gain in size.” The untold fact left out of this global warming hysteria fear mongering piece of journalism is that the West Antarctic Ice Sheet is about 12% the size of the East Antarctic Ice sheet. The larger, growing East Antarctic Ice Sheet contains 26 million cubic kilometers of ice. The less stable West Antarctic Ice Sheet contains 3 million cubic kilometers of ice.”

http://icecap.us/index.php

yes, but mine is the latest study . Until tomorrow's.

Also it is not the UK Globe Mail it is the Toronto Globe and Mail.

[N_Fiddledog]

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

Also it is not the UK Globe Mail it is the Toronto Globe and Mail.

Speaking of misquotes concerning that particular story I heard one on CTV news that actually mattered. They were saying 75% of the Antarctic ice mass has disappeared. They were referring of course to this.

$1:

"Over the time period of our survey, the ice sheet as a whole was certainly losing mass, and the mass loss increased by 75 per cent in 10 years," the study said.

There's a pretty big distinction between those 2 statements, don't you think. I mean can you imagine if 75% of the Antarctic ice mass melted into the ocean, as CTV implied. Can you imagine what kind of sea rises we'd be talking about? I think we'd know about that one. We wouldn't need a computer modeled study to tell us. But the thing is there's all these CTV news viewers running around right now, hysterically reporting a 75% loss of Antarctic ice mass as fact.

As far as the story goes it's a long way from over. We've only heard critique of the press release so far, and it's setting off a lot of Bullshit detectors already. We'll hear more as the experts look the actual study over in more detail I'll wager. This is NASA after all. It's not like they've never made climate reading mistakes before. I wanna see what happens when people like Mckittrick get a chance to look at the math in the models. Providing the math is made public of course. NASA doesn't always do that. Nobody knows why (but they have suspicions).

BTW you have to read all the way to the end of the article (sometimes I think you should start there), but they're saying parts of the West Antarctic and that little peninsula are what's actually melting. How much actual geographical area is that that's supposed to be melting. The larger Eastern Antarctic remains stable according to them, but how much of the West is included in this supposed ice loss?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/p ... html/1.stm

[hurley_108]

N_Fiddledog N_Fiddledog:

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

Also it is not the UK Globe Mail it is the Toronto Globe and Mail.

Speaking of misquotes concerning that particular story I heard one on CTV news that actually mattered. They were saying 75% of the Antarctic ice mass has disappeared. They were referring of course to this.

$1:

"Over the time period of our survey, the ice sheet as a whole was certainly losing mass, and the mass loss increased by 75 per cent in 10 years," the study said.

There's a pretty big distinction between those 2 statements, don't you think. I mean can you imagine if 75% of the Antarctic ice mass melted into the ocean, as CTV implied. Can you imagine what kind of sea rises we'd be talking about? I think we'd know about that one. We wouldn't need a computer modeled study to tell us. But the thing is there's all these CTV news viewers running around right now, hysterically reporting a 75% loss of Antarctic ice mass as fact.

As far as the story goes it's a long way from over. We've only heard critique of the press release so far, and it's setting off a lot of Bullshit detectors already. We'll hear more as the experts look the actual study over in more detail I'll wager. This is NASA after all. It's not like they've never made climate reading mistakes before. I wanna see what happens when people like Mckittrick get a chance to look at the math in the models. Providing the math is made public of course. NASA doesn't always do that. Nobody knows why (but they have suspicions).

BTW you have to read all the way to the end of the article (sometimes I think you should start there), but they're saying parts of the West Antarctic and that little peninsula are what's actually melting. How much actual geographical area is that that's supposed to be melting. The larger Eastern Antarctic remains stable according to them, but how much of the West is included in this supposed ice loss?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/p ... html/1.stm

The fact that we have hundreds of thousands of years of ice-core data proves that there are just some parts of the world that continue to accumulate ice year over year no matter how hot or cold it gets overall. The Earth has warmed in the past, as you are so fond of reminding everyone, and yet these areas have still accumulated ice. Thus, the simple fact that some parts of Antarctica / Greenland are still accumulating ice does not mean that the Earth isn't warming.

[sasquatch2]

hurley_108

$1:

The fact that we have hundreds of thousands of years of ice-core data proves that there are just some parts of the world that continue to accumulate ice year over year no matter how hot or cold it gets overall. The Earth has warmed in the past, as you are so fond of reminding everyone, and yet these areas have still accumulated ice. Thus, the simple fact that some parts of Antarctica / Greenland are still accumulating ice does not mean that the Earth isn't warming.

Excellant! You are starting to grasp the basics----there is indeed hope for you yet.