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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 9:00 am
 


sandorski wrote:
Technologies that don't employ Electricity? I find that highly doubtful.


And I find you unimaginative and pedestrian to not consider that aliens might have different foundational technologies than we do.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 9:02 am
 


sandorski wrote:
I disagree on both accounts. We do not know enough to say that. As for similar stages, the problem is that the physical properties of the Universe are limited. It is doubtful that another species could not use Electricity as a main form of Energy, for eg.

The physics of the known universe may be constant, but the requirements for an alien species to exist, interact, and thrive in the same universe is not.

We will not be getting a whole lot of radio signals coming from a planet full of telepaths?

We aren't going to see a lot of transportation on a planet full of aliens that fly?

Probably not going to see the same level of energy requirements from lower gravity planets as you would from higher gravity?

Etc, etc.

On top of that, we will also have to factor in happenstance occurrences, random technological breakthroughs, basically...everything we could possibly think of.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 9:07 am
 


BartSimpson wrote:
sandorski wrote:
Technologies that don't employ Electricity? I find that highly doubtful.


And I find you unimaginative and pedestrian to not consider that aliens might have different foundational technologies than we do.


Ah well. I find your arguments to be filled with straw.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 9:16 am
 


peck420 wrote:
sandorski wrote:
I disagree on both accounts. We do not know enough to say that. As for similar stages, the problem is that the physical properties of the Universe are limited. It is doubtful that another species could not use Electricity as a main form of Energy, for eg.

The physics of the known universe may be constant, but the requirements for an alien species to exist, interact, and thrive in the same universe is not.

We will not be getting a whole lot of radio signals coming from a planet full of telepaths?

We aren't going to see a lot of transportation on a planet full of aliens that fly?

Probably not going to see the same level of energy requirements from lower gravity planets as you would from higher gravity?

Etc, etc.

On top of that, we will also have to factor in happenstance occurrences, random technological breakthroughs, basically...everything we could possibly think of.


Your comments here along with Boot's reference to the Turtledove story bring to mind a neat piece of fan fiction I came across before the last incarnation of BSG ended.

In Battlestar Galactica (BSG) they never developed a warp drive. In the Star Trek (ST) universe they never developed the ability to 'jump' across great distances.

In the fan fiction story I read the BSG people end up on the far reaches of Federation space and they bring with them the Cylons. The story moved pretty fast with the Cylons and the Borg warring over who was going to assimilate who and the Federation and the Colonists joining forces against both the Cylons and the Borg.

The Cylons had a bugger of a time defeating Federation energy shields (an unknown technology to the Cylons and Colonists) and the Borg and the Federation had a bugger of a time trying to counter the ability of the Cylons to show up anywhere they want to...even inside of a Federation ship's shields.

The contrast of the two technological cultures coming together was what was fascinating to me in that story as both had their advantages and disadvantages.

In the end of the story the Borg were defeated by the Cylons who were immune to Borg assimilation technology and the Cylons ended up simply disappearing from Federation space...possibly to return.

Which brings us to to consideration that alines do not have to look like us, speak like us, think like us, or employ technology like we do.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 9:18 am
 


sandorski wrote:
BartSimpson wrote:
sandorski wrote:
Technologies that don't employ Electricity? I find that highly doubtful.


And I find you unimaginative and pedestrian to not consider that aliens might have different foundational technologies than we do.


Ah well. I find your arguments to be filled with straw.


Quote:
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Isn't he a bit like you and me?

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You don't know what you're missing (aaah-ah-la-la-la)
Nowhere man (aaah-ah-la-la-la)
The world is at your command (aaah-aah-lala-lala-la)

He's as blind as he can be
Just sees what he wants to see
Nowhere man, can you see me at all?

Nowhere man, don't worry (aaah-ah-la-la-la)
Take your time; don't hurry (aaah-ah-la-la-la)
Leave it all (aaah-ah-la-la-la)
Till somebody else lends you a hand (aaah-aah-lala-lala)

Doesn't have a point of view
Knows not where he's going to
Isn't he a bit like you and me?

Nowhere man please listen (aaah-ah-la-la-la)
You don't know what you're missing (aaah-ah-la-la-la)
Nowhere man (aaah-ah-la-la-la)
The world is at your command (aaah-aah-lala-lala)

He's a real nowhere man
Sitting in his nowhere land
Making all his nowhere plans for nobody
Making all his nowhere plans for nobody
Making all his nowhere plans for nobody


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 9:32 am
 


Aliens could be like an old (Gahan Wilson?) cartoon. One whale recites some complicated formula, the other says "Eureka! You solved the Unified Filed Theorem. Too bad we don't have any hands to DO something with it..."


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 9:34 am
 


Pretty sure that any culture that develops on a metals-poor world or electrically-inert planet won't be able to progress past a medieval society. Figuring out how to harness electricity led to our own industrial development. The route from electricity to heavy machinery to use of fossil fuels to provide the heavy power requirements for engines and onto further industrialization of advanced technologies (such as microchips) is fairly linear. Can't move forward to one development without having discovered and made us of others.

I'm eliminating such concepts as bio-electricity generated by organic beings because that kind of thing is pretty much pure sci-fi. I love sci-fi but it gives people too many weird ideas of what's possible when most of it simply isn't. It's fun in it's own way but let's try to keep it real.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 9:42 am
 


herbie wrote:
Aliens could be like an old (Gahan Wilson?) cartoon. One whale recites some complicated formula, the other says "Eureka! You solved the Unified Filed Theorem. Too bad we don't have any hands to DO something with it..."


Going by what biologists are discovering here on Earth the most likely candidate for a non-humanoid sentient life form that we'd discover would be a hyper-intelligent octopus. The ones in our oceans are proving to be incredible intelligent creatures. A kind that had progressed into true sentience and developed it's own culture would be absolutely fascinating.

Good point about the hands. Eliminate hands, or tentacles, or some other type of digits that are capable of using tools, and any civilization-building capability is nixed on the spot. Personally I think the most likely and common form with be humanoid with at least two hands and bipedal. The next would be some kind of centaur-type form, quadropedal but with a large brain and some kind of hands as well. Avian is possible as well but it'll probably come as some sort of large hyper-intelligent raven, with a strong body and bone structure that would allow it to evolve it's own (once again) set of hands.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 9:45 am
 


Thanos wrote:
Pretty sure that any culture that develops on a metals-poor world or electrically-inert planet won't be able to progress past a medieval society. Figuring out how to harness electricity led to our own industrial development. The route from electricity to heavy machinery to use of fossil fuels to provide the heavy power requirements for engines and onto further industrialization of advanced technologies (such as microchips) is fairly linear. Can't move forward to one development without having discovered and made us of others.

I'm eliminating such concepts as bio-electricity generated by organic beings because that kind of thing is pretty much pure sci-fi. I love sci-fi but it gives people too many weird ideas of what's possible when most of it simply isn't. It's fun in it's own way but let's try to keep it real.


The corollary of that is that life on a high metal, electrically active planet would progress much faster than we did.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 9:48 am
 


Thanos wrote:
Going by what biologists are discovering here on Earth the most likely candidate for a non-humanoid sentient life form that we'd discover would be a hyper-intelligent octopus. The ones in our oceans are proving to be incredible intelligent creatures. A kind that had progressed into true sentience and developed it's own culture would be absolutely fascinating.

Good point about the hands. Eliminate hands, or tentacles, or some other type of digits that are capable of using tools, and any civilization-building capability is nixed on the spot. Personally I think the most likely and common form with be humanoid with at least two hands and bipedal. The next would be some kind of centaur-type form, quadropedal but with a large brain and some kind of hands as well. Avian is possible as well but it'll probably come as some sort of large hyper-intelligent raven, with a strong body and bone structure that would allow it to evolve it's own (once again) set of hands.


Octopus brains are distributed throughout their body. They can autotmize their a limb and that limb, having it's own brain, can distract a predator while the octopus makes it's escape. Also octopus's don't just change color like a chameleon--they can change their color, texture and shape.

I wrote a blog about it once:

http://mindfingers.blogspot.ca/2013/03/six-things-you-didnt-know-about.html


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 10:13 am
 


Zipperfish wrote:
Octopus brains are distributed throughout their body. They can autotmize their a limb and that limb, having it's own brain, can distract a predator while the octopus makes it's escape. Also octopus's don't just change color like a chameleon--they can change their color, texture and shape.

I wrote a blog about it once:

http://mindfingers.blogspot.ca/2013/03/six-things-you-didnt-know-about.html


Cool. :)

Octopus are amateurs compared to cuttlefish!



http://video.nationalgeographic.com/vid ... h-hypnosis

Imagine if they lived longer than 2 years, and became a dominant species? Would another world even be able to detect an aquatic society?


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 10:26 am
 


Zipperfish wrote:
Thanos wrote:
Pretty sure that any culture that develops on a metals-poor world or electrically-inert planet won't be able to progress past a medieval society. Figuring out how to harness electricity led to our own industrial development. The route from electricity to heavy machinery to use of fossil fuels to provide the heavy power requirements for engines and onto further industrialization of advanced technologies (such as microchips) is fairly linear. Can't move forward to one development without having discovered and made us of others.

I'm eliminating such concepts as bio-electricity generated by organic beings because that kind of thing is pretty much pure sci-fi. I love sci-fi but it gives people too many weird ideas of what's possible when most of it simply isn't. It's fun in it's own way but let's try to keep it real.


The corollary of that is that life on a high metal, electrically active planet would progress much faster than we did.


Nicely stated! :wink:


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 12:57 pm
 


sandorski wrote:

Quote:
Electricity is not obvious, only the (most common) effects of an electrical current or high voltage ionisation are.

On a world where these effects are not demonstrable, it would have to be discovered by means alien to us. Therefore it is arrogance to assume otherwise.


Electric shocks have been known about for thousands of years and lightning.


Yes by earth's inhabitants. We do not know about other civilisations.

Like I said, electricity cannot be seen, that is unless one has the ability to see individual electrons and their movement from orbit to orbit.

Electricity was never discovered, just the means to harness.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 2:52 pm
 


Zipperfish wrote:
Thanos wrote:
Pretty sure that any culture that develops on a metals-poor world or electrically-inert planet won't be able to progress past a medieval society. Figuring out how to harness electricity led to our own industrial development. The route from electricity to heavy machinery to use of fossil fuels to provide the heavy power requirements for engines and onto further industrialization of advanced technologies (such as microchips) is fairly linear. Can't move forward to one development without having discovered and made us of others.

I'm eliminating such concepts as bio-electricity generated by organic beings because that kind of thing is pretty much pure sci-fi. I love sci-fi but it gives people too many weird ideas of what's possible when most of it simply isn't. It's fun in it's own way but let's try to keep it real.


The corollary of that is that life on a high metal, electrically active planet would progress much faster than we did.


Not necessarily. On a planet with a more active atmosphere or one with a more dynamic internal core, natural electricity in lightning or from static discharges might be too intense and too dangerous for life to take a foothold at all. Metal resources aren't a guarantor that life will take hold on a planet anyway. All metal does is ensure that any life form capable of turning it into usable items will experience a series of cultural, economic, and scientific advancements as they get better and better at processing it.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 3:38 pm
 


Thanos wrote:
Not necessarily. On a planet with a more active atmosphere or one with a more dynamic internal core, natural electricity in lightning or from static discharges might be too intense and too dangerous for life to take a foothold at all. Metal resources aren't a guarantor that life will take hold on a planet anyway. All metal does is ensure that any life form capable of turning it into usable items will experience a series of cultural, economic, and scientific advancements as they get better and better at processing it.


True that. Just remembered a sci-fi story involving semi-sentient creatures made of metal flakes in an electromagnetic field.

We have no inkling what would construe life in an alien biosphere. We have enough difficulty even defining life here. Is a virus alive? How about a prion?

I've been quite involved, as an amateur researcher into the origins of life and thermodynamic entropy. This kind of stuff:

A New Physics Theory of Life

(Only that article is a little generous to this young sceintist because there was a Canadian researcher working on this same stuff 20 years ago.)

The upshot could eventually be use of scanning multi-spectral analysis to detect life in the cosmos.


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