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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 5:46 pm
 


ShepherdsDog wrote:
It's impossible to dumb it down enough for xort bus to even realize that it's going over his head

How about this, did the spike in suicides predate the sale of GM cotton or not?

Is the suicide rate of farmers and farm worker lower than the national average or not?

Has the production of cotton in India raised after the interduction of GM cotton or fallen?


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 5:56 pm
 


PublicAnimalNo9 wrote:
Your post is shit and full of shit as well.
Same question I asked SD but for you.

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Let's look at your blame of the farmers. Tell us genius boy, where are the farmers going to get traditional seed varieties when the Indian govt banned them from most seed banks?
From seed sellers, also they have not been banned they have been replaced. If few people are buying the normal seeds why would a seed bank stock them in large numbers?

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THis is collusion between Monsanto and the Indian govt.
No proof of this, but that's the great thing about conspiracy theories you don't need proof or facts, just accusation.
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Same thing is happening in the US. Obama just signed an act which protects Monsanto from the courts and the FDA even if/when their food turns out to have serious health issues for the consumer.
Another issue for another time, but for anyone keeping count this is a childish interpretation with a few factual errors and a few legal mistakes.
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Then you waffle on about the water cotton needs. Anyone that has ever grown cotton knows they are thirsty little buggers, so it would seem that letting farmer's know that these particular GM crops require TWICE AS MUCH WATER would be a fucking important fact to lay on the farmer's before screwing them into buying GM seeds.
Need proof that the water demand is double and futher that the use of the seeds wasn't explained. The idea that Monsanto is selling seeds to farmers hoping the farmers will fail and not be able to buy more seeds in the future is one of the stupidest business models I've heard in a while. And the clear counter, Monsanto isn't taking control of the lands some of the farmers have lost, they are not in the production business, they are in the selling business.
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As for your defense of GM crops, get bent. Monsanto's Bt cotton is crap.
Yields and profitability have raised sharply after the interduction. This is a fact. If you really want I can give you a source that shows this, but given your refusal to look at any of the other facts I can't see why I should bother. For anyone else reading this, about 5s on google will give you an answer.


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Not really sure how that reduces the need for pesticides.
Well it's reduced the useage by 40%, that's another fact. I could go into just a bit of detail and tell you how it has reduced the use, but I'd rather say it's GM magic.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 6:42 am
 


DrCaleb wrote:
PublicAnimalNo9 wrote:
The fact that Monsanto's GM crops don't produce viable seeds also means a shrivelling food source for humans and livestock alike.


And since we keep seeing Montaso seed in the wild, it might also mean an end to non-GM varieties of cotton.


Ok i'm a bit confussed here. If these cotton plants are seedless how are we seeing the seeds in the wild? Secondly by being seedless they should disapper from the wild after one season so how would that cause the end to non-GM cotton?


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 7:30 am
 


Xort wrote:
PublicAnimalNo9 wrote:
Your post is shit and full of shit as well.
Same question I asked SD but for you.

Quote:
Let's look at your blame of the farmers. Tell us genius boy, where are the farmers going to get traditional seed varieties when the Indian govt banned them from most seed banks?
From seed sellers, also they have not been banned they have been replaced. If few people are buying the normal seeds why would a seed bank stock them in large numbers?

Quote:
THis is collusion between Monsanto and the Indian govt.
No proof of this, but that's the great thing about conspiracy theories you don't need proof or facts, just accusation.
Quote:
Same thing is happening in the US. Obama just signed an act which protects Monsanto from the courts and the FDA even if/when their food turns out to have serious health issues for the consumer.
Another issue for another time, but for anyone keeping count this is a childish interpretation with a few factual errors and a few legal mistakes.
Quote:
Then you waffle on about the water cotton needs. Anyone that has ever grown cotton knows they are thirsty little buggers, so it would seem that letting farmer's know that these particular GM crops require TWICE AS MUCH WATER would be a fucking important fact to lay on the farmer's before screwing them into buying GM seeds.
Need proof that the water demand is double and futher that the use of the seeds wasn't explained. The idea that Monsanto is selling seeds to farmers hoping the farmers will fail and not be able to buy more seeds in the future is one of the stupidest business models I've heard in a while. And the clear counter, Monsanto isn't taking control of the lands some of the farmers have lost, they are not in the production business, they are in the selling business.
Quote:
As for your defense of GM crops, get bent. Monsanto's Bt cotton is crap.
Yields and profitability have raised sharply after the interduction. This is a fact. If you really want I can give you a source that shows this, but given your refusal to look at any of the other facts I can't see why I should bother. For anyone else reading this, about 5s on google will give you an answer.


Quote:
Not really sure how that reduces the need for pesticides.
Well it's reduced the useage by 40%, that's another fact. I could go into just a bit of detail and tell you how it has reduced the use, but I'd rather say it's GM magic.

You talk a lot of "facts" but don't back them up in any way. In fact, the only fact you even tried to back up was wrooonggggg, and that was farmer suicides in India.
2011-2012 saw a spate of farmer suicides in India, the majority of whom were Bt cotton farmers.
"Normal" seeds in seed banks in India have not been merely replaced, they have been banned. Read the friggin' article.

As for proof about the amount of water, you obviously know fuck-all about farming.
Even basic hybrid crops generally require more water than either of the "parent" stock.

As for my refusal to "look at any of the other facts", you haven't presented any facts. You merely stated shit and assured me it was fact. Those 5s on Google will also give you links galore to studies that aren't so positive about GM crops.

You also state that pesticide use is down 40%. How is that possible? The genetic manipulation/modification has left Bt cotton susceptible to secondary and tertiary pests. It can no longer produce its own defense against those pests.

Look at the huge increase in allergies to certain foods. Peanuts(linked to modified and processed soy products) dairy and wheat have all seen a large increase in allergic reactions. Soy and wheat are two of the most highly modified food crops while dairy cattle have also been extensively fucked with.
Allergies to these foods were extremely rare until they started genetically modifying them. Coincidence? I'd bet you think it is.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 8:29 am
 


stratos wrote:
DrCaleb wrote:
PublicAnimalNo9 wrote:
The fact that Monsanto's GM crops don't produce viable seeds also means a shrivelling food source for humans and livestock alike.


And since we keep seeing Montaso seed in the wild, it might also mean an end to non-GM varieties of cotton.


Ok i'm a bit confussed here. If these cotton plants are seedless how are we seeing the seeds in the wild? Secondly by being seedless they should disapper from the wild after one season so how would that cause the end to non-GM cotton?


They don't produce viable seeds. ie: Farmers plant the cotton they get from the bank as seeds, but the plants that grow from them in turn produce seeds that will not grow. ie: "Terminator Seeds" In the meantime however, they still produce pollen that travels on air currents and pollinates other cotton plants, that may pass that trait on and produce seeds in some other farmers field that also are not viable.

Thus ends the germination cycle, and all that are left are seeds you have to buy from the seed bank because the terminator seeds have wiped out the heritage varieties.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 9:17 am
 


Quote:
They don't produce viable seeds. ie: Farmers plant the cotton they get from the bank as seeds, but the plants that grow from them in turn produce seeds that will not grow. ie: "Terminator Seeds" In the meantime however, they still produce pollen that travels on air currents and pollinates other cotton plants, that may pass that trait on and produce seeds in some other farmers field that also are not viable.

Thus ends the germination cycle, and all that are left are seeds you have to buy from the seed bank because the terminator seeds have wiped out the heritage varieties.


Okay now it makes sense to me. Thanks


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 2:53 pm
 


PublicAnimalNo9 wrote:
You talk a lot of "facts" but don't back them up in any way. In fact, the only fact you even tried to back up was wrooonggggg, and that was farmer suicides in India.
2011-2012 saw a spate of farmer suicides in India, the majority of whom were Bt cotton farmers.
I gave you the numbers of farmer suicides, the total number has stayed static even while the total population has been on a sharp rise. The suicide rate for farmers is lower than the national average and the spike in farmer suicides predates the interduction of GM cotton by 7 years.

How is this anything other than the smoking gun that Indian farmers are not commiting suicide because of GM cotton?
Quote:
"Normal" seeds in seed banks in India have not been merely replaced, they have been banned. Read the friggin' article.
Show me the legislation that banned them. They are not banned, the government banks have stopped stocking them at the same levels, the seed banks have been given instruction to carry lower amounts of the traditional seeds because the government operates in a top down mode. If you actually read the article it says "from many government seed banks". Some 'ban', doesn't apply to all seed banks.

What we have here is a cultural differance, government says don't carry as many or any normal cotton seeds. Activist reporters convert that order into a government ban.

They are not banned.
Quote:
As for proof about the amount of water, you obviously know fuck-all about farming.
Even basic hybrid crops generally require more water than either of the "parent" stock.
This isn't a hydrid crop it's a GM crop. A world of differance. But anyway already cotton farmers suffer from a lack of water because they are rain dependant for the water. If the season comes late their crop is toast GM or normal. This is why cotton farming in those regions is reguarded as a risky cash crop.

Quote:
As for my refusal to "look at any of the other facts", you haven't presented any facts. You merely stated shit and assured me it was fact. Those 5s on Google will also give you links galore to studies that aren't so positive about GM crops.
I gave you the suicide rate, which is the center point of the activist's claim.
Quote:
You also state that pesticide use is down 40%. How is that possible? The genetic manipulation/modification has left Bt cotton susceptible to secondary and tertiary pests. It can no longer produce its own defense against those pests.
How is it possible? Well the farmers now use less pesticides because the main requirement has been reduced.

Think of it like this, factor 1 is 90%, 2 is 5%, 3 and 4 and 2.5% each. Change it so factor one is reduced to 10%. Then double all other factors. Guess what? You still come out way ahead.
Quote:
Look at the huge increase in allergies to certain foods. Peanuts(linked to modified and processed soy products) dairy and wheat have all seen a large increase in allergic reactions. Soy and wheat are two of the most highly modified food crops while dairy cattle have also been extensively fucked with.
What's this have to do with the price of cotton in India? If you want to shill for the anti GM crowd make a new thread and post some half baked propaganda. But for this thread please stick to GM cotton causing a rise in the sucide rate of Indian farmers. (or not because I've already proved that is BS)

Quote:
Allergies to these foods were extremely rare until they started genetically modifying them. Coincidence? I'd bet you think it is.

How about this as a quick possible answer, back in the day the kids just died. Or for another possible answer the children back in the day were exposed to a greater amount of enviromental irritants so the response systems were less likely to become hyper sensitive.

I'm sure I could go and see what the current medical opinion and statistical demographic opinion on the rate of food allergies is, but like most things I'm going to bet that it's within the expected curve and it's only our better media access and ease of activist communication that makes us think we have a huge problem.


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