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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:26 pm
 


I know that this is bad news for the oil and coal industries, but the writing appears to be on the wall for fossil fuels, and it is not entirely to do with global warming, although that is a factor. What it is coming down to is the simple fact that wind and solar are now cheaper and more versatile than fossil fuels, and that is even without possible continued improvements.

Now, before anyone pisses all over this post I do realize that coal and oil are far from finished. Coal has been a dominant fuel since the 18th Century and oil since the 19th, and there is a huge amount of global infrastructure devoted to their use. It will take decades for all of this to be replaced and in fact there will still be some industrial and transport uses for fossil fuels even after green tech becomes dominant. However, historically more efficient and more economical systems always win out.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:46 pm
 


Coal is still needed for a number of industrial purposes like making steel, among many others, but as an energy source it’s long been obsolete and is kept going only by ideology, political cronyism and simple resistance to change.

Oil and gas are still needed as an energy source for the foreseeable future, there are a lot of applications where energy alternatives simply aren’t suitable and won’t be any time soon. Eventually they will be, but not soon. But there are also lots of applications where alternative energy sources could easily fill in, allowing us to save our oil and gas for those other more crucial needs.


Last edited by BeaverFever on Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:55 pm
 


First off I hope that green tech does win, I am all for it. Do you have any links to back up your claims that wind and solar are now cheaper and more versatile than fossil fuels? U.S. Freight railroad can transport one ton of freight 479 miles per gallon of fuel. How well can solar and wind stack up against that?


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:38 pm
 


Green technology via solar power and possibly Tesla's battery system is decades from becoming a reality as our daily drivers for clean energy.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:42 pm
 


Petrochemicals are the building blocks of our civilization. Plastics and other petro-based conveniences are central to daily life. It'll Nat go quietly into the night like you think, when it does, we'll be long dead.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 5:27 am
 


llama66 wrote:
Petrochemicals are the building blocks of our civilization. Plastics and other petro-based conveniences are central to daily life. It'll Nat go quietly into the night like you think, when it does, we'll be long dead.



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:40 am
 


llama66 wrote:
Petrochemicals are the building blocks of our civilization. Plastics and other petro-based conveniences are central to daily life. It'll Nat go quietly into the night like you think, when it does, we'll be long dead.



I’m 41, I think I’ll see petrochemicals become a secondary energy source during my lifetime. I’m sure by the time I die it’ll still be in use to power some industrial/commercial equipment like tractors, excavators, etc. but I suspect the gasoline-powered family vehicle, lawnmower, chainsaw, motorboat, ATV, etc won’t survive the next couple of decades. Power generating stations will probably follow not long after as existing fossil fuel powered facilities reach the end of their useful lives and are gradually replaced.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:41 am
 


Too much money and power in Oil and kin. It will not go quietly.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:47 am
 


BeaverFever wrote:
llama66 wrote:
Petrochemicals are the building blocks of our civilization. Plastics and other petro-based conveniences are central to daily life. It'll Nat go quietly into the night like you think, when it does, we'll be long dead.



I’m 41, I think I’ll see petrochemicals become a secondary energy source during my lifetime.


[huh]

Petrochemicals; plastics, chemicals used to make pharmaceuticals, etc. Chemicals that don't exist anywhere else in nature.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:49 am
 


DrCaleb wrote:
BeaverFever wrote:
llama66 wrote:
Petrochemicals are the building blocks of our civilization. Plastics and other petro-based conveniences are central to daily life. It'll Nat go quietly into the night like you think, when it does, we'll be long dead.



I’m 41, I think I’ll see petrochemicals become a secondary energy source during my lifetime.


[huh]

Petrochemicals; plastics, chemicals used to make pharmaceuticals, etc. Chemicals that don't exist anywhere else in nature.


Fuels derived from oil and gas


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:04 am
 


BeaverFever wrote:
DrCaleb wrote:
BeaverFever wrote:

I’m 41, I think I’ll see petrochemicals become a secondary energy source during my lifetime.


[huh]

Petrochemicals; plastics, chemicals used to make pharmaceuticals, etc. Chemicals that don't exist anywhere else in nature.


Fuels derived from oil and gas


Petrochemicals are not used as fuel. They are not an energy source. They are used as chemicals that facilitate modern life. Water bottles, seatbelts in your car, non stick coatings on frying pans . . .


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:12 am
 


Douwe wrote:
...the simple fact that wind and solar are now cheaper and more versatile than fossil fuels...


Bullshit.

First, solar and wind depend upon oil, gas, and hydro as backup sources of power. They cannot provide power at all times and during peak hours.

Second, once you remove the subsidies for solar and wind and then tax those sources at the same rate that carbon fuels are taxed (the energy industry calls this 'leveling') then solar and wind are NOT cheaper.

We're also starting to discover that the cost of disposing of the massive carbon fiber windmill blades is going to eventually discourage the large windmills that currently blight much of the world.

Likewise, solar panels are not made from unicorn farts. They're typically very toxic and they're difficult to recycle...if at all.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:16 am
 


DrCaleb wrote:

Petrochemicals are not used as fuel. They are not an energy source. They are used as chemicals that facilitate modern life. Water bottles, seatbelts in your car, non stick coatings on frying pans . . .



Whatev. I’m sure you were able to figure out what I meant


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 am
 


BeaverFever wrote:
DrCaleb wrote:

Petrochemicals are not used as fuel. They are not an energy source. They are used as chemicals that facilitate modern life. Water bottles, seatbelts in your car, non stick coatings on frying pans . . .



Whatev. I’m sure you were able to figure out what I meant


No, I can only figure out what you write. What you wrote didn't make sense.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:31 am
 


BartSimpson wrote:
First, solar and wind depend upon oil, gas, and hydro as backup sources of power. They cannot provide power at all times and during peak hours.


Yes, they can. There are multiple technologies, from molten salt storage to batteries to purpose built hydro dams. Technology evolves, and problems get solved.

BartSimpson wrote:
Second, once you remove the subsidies for solar and wind and then tax those sources at the same rate that carbon fuels are taxed (the energy industry calls this 'leveling') then solar and wind are NOT cheaper.


Europe is building more wind and solar — without any subsidies

And with that reduction in subsidies, you'll see this chart shows the cost of coal rising from 2013 to 2018, and the cost of renewable energy falling.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cost_of_e ... ce#Germany

BartSimpson wrote:
We're also starting to discover that the cost of disposing of the massive carbon fiber windmill blades is going to eventually discourage the large windmills that currently blight much of the world.


Disposal is factored into the lifetime cost of the windmill.

Reaching retirement: Recycling aging turbine blades

BartSimpson wrote:
Likewise, solar panels are not made from unicorn farts. They're typically very toxic and they're difficult to recycle...if at all.


Solar panels are mostly glass, plastic and aluminium. Easily recycled.

The Opportunities of Solar Panel Recycling


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