[Stymiest]

[QUOTE BY= z_whalen] Oh yah and building up our military with the sole purpose of pissing off America is a bad idea. I think we have better things to do.[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />all of what you just said whalen is what we have been posting here in the first place thanks for clarifying everything for them.

[Perturbed]

After listening to this debate--my brain just shrank. <br /> <br />We should build our own military because we have the resources of Russia, with technical ability second to none. We simply send money into the U.S. economy when we buy American, we get scaled-down versions of their aircraft, and rely on them for replacement parts. This is not military independence. <br /> <br />As for the Avro Arrow, it was already almost finished, and we spent more per plane for inferior F-104 Voodoo fighters. FACT. The Arrow was also the only plane capable of shooting down the U-2 spy plane, which was overrunning our airspace. <br /> <br />As for the peaceniks who think we shouldn't make building Canadian planes a priority, tell that to the unemployed, and those who care about national pride. <br /> <br />People are so naive.

[Crankster]

[QUOTE BY= z_whalen] I don't think there's anything wrong with purchasing military vehicles and technology from other countries as long as you get it for the right price. We got some subs from the UK and contrary to popular belief they will be capable of incorporating into our fleets. Germany is supposedly willing to sell a lighter version of their Leopard 2 battle tanks: something we should definetly capitalize on, seeing as how effective American tanks were in Iraq (they may have been there for the wrong reasons, but I'll be damned if they weren't effective). This does not mean we should stop manufacturing at home. A boost in military manufacturing could create some new jobs and boost our economy a little. What we need is a combination of new vehicles and new technology, some of it home produced at home and some imported from abroad. This is why our forces need increase funds.[/QUOTE] <br /> Ah,shit,Whalen,its not about buying.Its about building strength in moral and nationalpride.If i was to goto war,I would surely like to shoot,drive,screw anything Canandian then knowing my equipment was American,Russian etc. <br /> Not only moral,but,it builds a strong national economy.The more we contract to foreign entities the more jobs lost here.The more jobs lost,the more peope say fuck Canada,she don't care about her own anyway! <br /> Get off your ass and do the math!

[Stymiest]

[QUOTE BY= Crankster] [QUOTE BY= z_whalen] I don't think there's anything wrong with purchasing military vehicles and technology from other countries as long as you get it for the right price. We got some subs from the UK and contrary to popular belief they will be capable of incorporating into our fleets. Germany is supposedly willing to sell a lighter version of their Leopard 2 battle tanks: something we should definetly capitalize on, seeing as how effective American tanks were in Iraq (they may have been there for the wrong reasons, but I'll be damned if they weren't effective). This does not mean we should stop manufacturing at home. A boost in military manufacturing could create some new jobs and boost our economy a little. What we need is a combination of new vehicles and new technology, some of it home produced at home and some imported from abroad. This is why our forces need increase funds.[/QUOTE] <br /> Ah,shit,Whalen,its not about buying.Its about building strength in moral and nationalpride.If i was to goto war,I would surely like to shoot,drive,screw anything Canandian then knowing my equipment was American,Russian etc. <br /> Not only moral,but,it builds a strong national economy.The more we contract to foreign entities the more jobs lost here.The more jobs lost,the more peope say fuck Canada,she don't care about her own anyway! <br /> Get off your ass and do the math![/QUOTE] <br /> <br />well then you would have a pretty hard time fighting world war II considering our equipment was all british and american designed buddy <br /> <br />Why don't you look up on the Avro Arrow perturbed. Or read some of G.L. granastein's books instead of posting your rhetorical statements here.

[whelan costen]

Stymiest said:Or read some of G.L. granastein's books instead of posting your rhetorical statements here. <br /> <br />You cannot seriously be saying that Granastein is a good Canadian source, he is so American led that I am surprised anyone calls him an expert on Canada! I would read and reread Peturbed anyday over Granastein! <br /> <br /> <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/frown.gif' alt='Frown'>

[Perturbed]

[QUOTE BY= Stymiest] [QUOTE BY= Crankster] [QUOTE BY= z_whalen] I don't think there's anything wrong with purchasing military vehicles and technology from other countries as long as you get it for the right price. We got some subs from the UK and contrary to popular belief they will be capable of incorporating into our fleets. Germany is supposedly willing to sell a lighter version of their Leopard 2 battle tanks: something we should definetly capitalize on, seeing as how effective American tanks were in Iraq (they may have been there for the wrong reasons, but I'll be damned if they weren't effective). This does not mean we should stop manufacturing at home. A boost in military manufacturing could create some new jobs and boost our economy a little. What we need is a combination of new vehicles and new technology, some of it home produced at home and some imported from abroad. This is why our forces need increase funds.[/QUOTE] <br /> Ah,shit,Whalen,its not about buying.Its about building strength in moral and nationalpride.If i was to goto war,I would surely like to shoot,drive,screw anything Canandian then knowing my equipment was American,Russian etc. <br /> Not only moral,but,it builds a strong national economy.The more we contract to foreign entities the more jobs lost here.The more jobs lost,the more peope say fuck Canada,she don't care about her own anyway! <br /> Get off your ass and do the math![/QUOTE] <br /> <br />well then you would have a pretty hard time fighting world war II considering our equipment was all british and american designed buddy <br /> <br />Why don't you look up on the Avro Arrow perturbed. Or read some of G.L. granastein's books instead of posting your rhetorical statements here.[/QUOTE] <br /> <br /> <br />1. Wrong once--Canada designed many of its ships, as well as some of its other weapons. Canada built BRitish-designed planes, but our Corvettes, which we built in the hundreds, featured Squid launchers which no other ship had at the time. <br /> <br /> <br />2. Wrong twice--You are completely uninformed, get off your high horse. I've read countless books on the Arrow--it was much more expensive to buy American jets, BECAUSE we had already spent money on the development costs. Do the math genius. <br /> <br />3. Granatstein is a conventional historian, who works for the Ameircan-funded C.D. Howe Institute dedicated to Americanizing Canada. He was picked because between moments of thoughtfulness, he was dismissive of Canadian accomplishments. His only accurate quotation I ever read was: <br /> <br />"Canada decided to harmonize its standards with the United States in the free-trade agreement. They lowered them to the American level."

[z_whalen]

Crankster, I understand what you're getting at and I agree that we need to start producing more of our military at home, but we can't produce everything here. If our goal is to give our soldiers proper and reliable equipment, we will sometimes have to depend on American or British technology.

[z_whalen]

I don't think Granatstein is American-led. Unlike most Canadian historians he is willing to tell it like it is, even if it makes America look good and Canada look bad. This is the truth of things. The US isn't all bad, Canada isn't all good. Of course Canadians are going to claim that we have the moral high ground, and Americans will claim they do. That's a fact of life. But being so vehemently opposed to another country to the point that you consider anything it does is evil, this never got anyone anywhere. Basing your opposition to American actions in spite of their country is wrong. I don't agree with everything they do, but I don't hate America. Does that make me love my country any less? No. It just means that I'm willing to cooperate when I think they are doing the right thing (cough Sudan cough). So maybe everyone should get off their high horse around here and just concentrate on doing the right thing, which is not necessarily the anti-American thing.

[Stymiest]

[QUOTE BY= Perturbed] [QUOTE BY= Stymiest] [QUOTE BY= Crankster] [QUOTE BY= z_whalen] I don't think there's anything wrong with purchasing military vehicles and technology from other countries as long as you get it for the right price. We got some subs from the UK and contrary to popular belief they will be capable of incorporating into our fleets. Germany is supposedly willing to sell a lighter version of their Leopard 2 battle tanks: something we should definetly capitalize on, seeing as how effective American tanks were in Iraq (they may have been there for the wrong reasons, but I'll be damned if they weren't effective). This does not mean we should stop manufacturing at home. A boost in military manufacturing could create some new jobs and boost our economy a little. What we need is a combination of new vehicles and new technology, some of it home produced at home and some imported from abroad. This is why our forces need increase funds.[/QUOTE] <br /> Ah,shit,Whalen,its not about buying.Its about building strength in moral and nationalpride.If i was to goto war,I would surely like to shoot,drive,screw anything Canandian then knowing my equipment was American,Russian etc. <br /> Not only moral,but,it builds a strong national economy.The more we contract to foreign entities the more jobs lost here.The more jobs lost,the more peope say fuck Canada,she don't care about her own anyway! <br /> Get off your ass and do the math![/QUOTE] <br /> <br />well then you would have a pretty hard time fighting world war II considering our equipment was all british and american designed buddy <br /> <br />Why don't you look up on the Avro Arrow perturbed. Or read some of G.L. granastein's books instead of posting your rhetorical statements here.[/QUOTE] <br /> <br /> <br />1. Wrong once--Canada designed many of its ships, as well as some of its other weapons. Canada built BRitish-designed planes, but our Corvettes, which we built in the hundreds, featured Squid launchers which no other ship had at the time. <br /> <br /> <br />2. Wrong twice--You are completely uninformed, get off your high horse. I've read countless books on the Arrow--it was much more expensive to buy American jets, BECAUSE we had already spent money on the development costs. Do the math genius. <br /> <br />3. Granatstein is a conventional historian, who works for the Ameircan-funded C.D. Howe Institute dedicated to Americanizing Canada. He was picked because between moments of thoughtfulness, he was dismissive of Canadian accomplishments. His only accurate quotation I ever read was: <br /> <br />"Canada decided to harmonize its standards with the United States in the free-trade agreement. They lowered them to the American level."[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />Wow we designed our own corvettes big whoopie has has this proven anything. <br /> <br />We drove around in willy's jeeps, we rode sherman tanks, we flew spitfires, hurricanes, lancasters, gloucesters, we fired stens, brens, colt 45, mark II hand grenades, we wore brit battle dress yes I am completely wrong when I said most of our military equipment was imported. Oh and on to the corvettes now. Indeed canada did build its own corvettes and this we can be prou dof but the fact is most of the technical systems in any of our vehicles anything in our ships etc was all foreign designed. <br /> <br />My point is Canada is a small country so what the hell is wrong with importing military equipment. You people seem to think a lot of our equipment should be completely home designed. DO YOU PEOPLE HAVE ANY IDEA HOW MUCH R&D COSTS!!!!! Its not building the thing thats the problem its developing the technological capabilities to do so and with a budget of 9 billion the canadian military does not have a lot of money to spend on R&D. <br /> <br />Do you think any countries of any comparable size spend their time researching their own technology NO WAY!!!! Most military tech is from Germany, UK, France, USA. This stuff is sold off to us and we refine it to meet our own needs.

[Stymiest]

[QUOTE BY= z_whalen] Crankster, I understand what you're getting at and I agree that we need to start producing more of our military at home, but we can't produce everything here. If our goal is to give our soldiers proper and reliable equipment, we will sometimes have to depend on American or British technology.[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />production is nothing. Most of our gear nowadays is produced in canada. New LAV III's were produced in Ontario at General Dynamics plant. its developing the shit thats expensive and with our limited funds it is a very difficult process so the bets bet is to import technology and implement it in our own ways. <br /> <br />

[Perturbed]

[QUOTE BY= whelan costen] Stymiest said:Or read some of G.L. granastein's books instead of posting your rhetorical statements here. <br /> <br />You cannot seriously be saying that Granastein is a good Canadian source, he is so American led that I am surprised anyone calls him an expert on Canada! I would read and reread Peturbed anyday over Granastein! <br /> <br /> <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/frown.gif' alt='Frown'> [/QUOTE] <br /> <br /> <br />You're too kind. <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/redface.gif' alt='Oops!'> <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/wink.gif' alt='Wink'>

[Perturbed]

[QUOTE BY= z_whalen] Crankster, I understand what you're getting at and I agree that we need to start producing more of our military at home, but we can't produce everything here. If our goal is to give our soldiers proper and reliable equipment, we will sometimes have to depend on American or British technology.[/QUOTE] <br /> <br /> <br />Why? Our technology is better. British technology is AWFUL, American is okay. We can produce everything here if the rich cease to horde our nation's money and send wealth to foreign oil companies.

[Stymiest]

[QUOTE BY= Perturbed] [QUOTE BY= whelan costen] Stymiest said:Or read some of G.L. granastein's books instead of posting your rhetorical statements here. <br /> <br />You cannot seriously be saying that Granastein is a good Canadian source, he is so American led that I am surprised anyone calls him an expert on Canada! I would read and reread Peturbed anyday over Granastein! <br /> <br /> <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/frown.gif' alt='Frown'> [/QUOTE] <br /> <br />You're too kind. <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/redface.gif' alt='Oops!'> <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/wink.gif' alt='Wink'> [/QUOTE] <br /> <br />Not to say that perturbed isn't a good source but granastein is a critically acclaimed Canadian historian and he has written some very good books in his day maybe you try reading one sometime instead of just taking what you see on a site like this as your opinion <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/smile.gif' alt='Smile'> <br /> <br />

[Perturbed]

[QUOTE BY= z_whalen] I don't think Granatstein is American-led. Unlike most Canadian historians he is willing to tell it like it is, even if it makes America look good and Canada look bad. This is the truth of things. The US isn't all bad, Canada isn't all good. Of course Canadians are going to claim that we have the moral high ground, and Americans will claim they do. That's a fact of life. But being so vehemently opposed to another country to the point that you consider anything it does is evil, this never got anyone anywhere. Basing your opposition to American actions in spite of their country is wrong. I don't agree with everything they do, but I don't hate America. Does that make me love my country any less? No. It just means that I'm willing to cooperate when I think they are doing the right thing (cough Sudan cough). So maybe everyone should get off their high horse around here and just concentrate on doing the right thing, which is not necessarily the anti-American thing.[/QUOTE] <br /> <br /> <br />Granatstein WORKS for the C.D. HOwe Institute which advocated ELIMINATING the border. How is that NOT American-led?

[Stymiest]

[QUOTE BY= Perturbed] [QUOTE BY= z_whalen] I don't think Granatstein is American-led. Unlike most Canadian historians he is willing to tell it like it is, even if it makes America look good and Canada look bad. This is the truth of things. The US isn't all bad, Canada isn't all good. Of course Canadians are going to claim that we have the moral high ground, and Americans will claim they do. That's a fact of life. But being so vehemently opposed to another country to the point that you consider anything it does is evil, this never got anyone anywhere. Basing your opposition to American actions in spite of their country is wrong. I don't agree with everything they do, but I don't hate America. Does that make me love my country any less? No. It just means that I'm willing to cooperate when I think they are doing the right thing (cough Sudan cough). So maybe everyone should get off their high horse around here and just concentrate on doing the right thing, which is not necessarily the anti-American thing.[/QUOTE] <br /> <br /> <br />Granatstein WORKS for the C.D. HOwe Institute which advocated ELIMINATING the border. How is that NOT American-led?[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />I have never said anything about eliminating our border all I am saying is this and you may take it or leave it but Canada as a middle power nation does not have the capacity to develop all its homegrown technology. We have some great soldiers who do wonderful things in this world but they are underfunded and are not recieving what they should. My eyes filled with joy when I heard Martin was increasing reg force troop levels by 5,000. When i found out it was to form a new "peacekeeping" brigade I became very p'od. Firstly Canada does not need another brigade what we need is to fully staff our current brigades so they can run at in an actual efficient manner <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/smile.gif' alt='Smile'> <br /> <br />Read my post about Canadas military needs it highlights our needs and what we require as a nation as far as military concerns are.