[gaulois]

With all respects, I will pop up my earlier post to the top of the list. <br /> <br /> Am a bit suprised that a site focused on Canadian sovereignty is not more interested in discussing the needs for a Manifeste. Are we losing steam?

[Dr Caleb]

I didn't see this first time around. I will think on it.<br /> <br /> But, I do think some steam is being lost. Perhaps people are too concerned about immediate problems, like "how T.F. am I going to pay my hydro bill?". For which I am wondering too.<br />

[Armageddon]

Thing is, how do we come up with a manifesto? What would it entail? Would America be put in as usual? <br /> <br /> MY suggestion is that we develop a special committee with members from this site. Members such as the site administrators, forum moderators, and members who give a voice here on Vive, be it a squeak or yell.<br /> What I think this special committee should focus on, when making a manifesto is:<br /> 1) Simply stating this site's purpose. <br /> 2) Proposing a plan to carry out this site's purpose.<br /> <br /> Those two are already on the site, but are merely part of the intro. <br /> <br /> Also, the manifesto could contain paragraphs explaining what sovereignty is, especially Canadian. That doesn't mean American bashing. In fact, I don't think the word America or American should even be mentioned. That would be the manifesto's downfall.<br /> Now, I could just be suggesting bullshit, but it seems to me a manifesto, with reading other manifestoes, is a document explaining a position's case, like the Humanist Manifesto, or even the Communist Manifesto. Hopefully thus I've come up with a decent post.<br /> <br /> With this mentioning of improving this site, I have other suggestions not relevant to this manifesto.<br /> 1) Monetary incentives as rewards for certain projects (let's face it, money is our true language). Like making a contest for who has the best Vive poster (I'm already drawing one, so I just mentioned that as an example).<br /> 2) Although this may sound harsh and rude, maybe the moderators need to be a wee bit tougher. This site does have quite a few members who ruin the reputation of this site, with all this anti-American bashing. I don't mind the U.S. but basing a sovereignty movement on the basis of antiism just wouldn't work I think. It shows weakness from my perspective, and no one certainly wants to think of this site as weak. <br /> 3) Hades, I don't know what 3 is, but I'll get back to everyone on that.<br /> <br /> My ranting for the day!

[Dr Caleb]

Ok. Here is a draft. I've never written a manifesto before. It's a living document, so feel free to comment, amend, comment some more . . .<br /> <br /> [quote]<br /> The Vive Le Canada Manifesto.<br /> <br /> We, the people of Canada, have become increasingly concerned and distraught with our country. We are becoming concerned with how the Government of Canada and its’ Judiciary have become so self absorbed and bloated as to ignore the fundamentals of what Canada is and it failure to protect the people of Canada. We also feel that the Government of Canada has been neglecting it citizens at the expense of Foreign interests and business especially. <br /> <br /> A) According to Stats Canada, the Federal and Provincial governments (excluding the military) employ nearly 4 million Canadians. This is roughly 10% of the population, making Government the largest single employer in Canada. We do not believe this is a proper size or role for the government.<br /> <br /> B ) The spending habits of the Government have also become a large concern for Canadians. We see extreme waste in the form of useless programs, ineffective legislations and wasteful spending which is having an adverse effect on important programs and departments and letting Canadians become increasingly the victims of crime and poverty because of this government waste.<br /> <br /> C) We also see citizens who have been abandoned while outside of Canada. People executed without fair trial; people murdered while in custody; people who have been sent for torture to third countries based solely on suspicion; people who are left to the mercy of Mother Nature. And yet, the policies of other countries treatment towards our citizens seem to have no repercussions. This is increasingly of concern to the people of Canada. We do not believe the Government of Canada will protect us, whether we are within our borders or not.<br /> <br /> D) We are increasingly alarmed at how in our proportional representation system of government, our representatives no longer choose to represent the people they have been elected by, rather they parrot the policies of their party and its’ leader. We are also concerned that those party leaders present a platform to the people during an election, with full intention to not follow that platform on which the people have elected them. We are also concerned the Judiciary has approved this behaviour.<br /> <br /> E) We, the people of Canada believe 'Justice' is punishment tempered with accountability. It is not retaliatory or vengeful. We also believe the rights of the victim outweigh the rights of the convicted. We also recognize a person's right to be considered innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. With that in mind, we are alarmed at the number of people who can commit and be convicted of many tens of violent crimes, and still be released on bail, only to commit more violent crimes while awaiting trial. We are concerned that a conviction for drunken driving causing death, somehow translates to two years of house arrest for the convicted party. Yet, that criminal is free to commit more deaths while their victims are still dead. While it is desirable to reform an offender and help them function and contribute to society once their debt to society is paid, the victims of that crime should also be treated with that same empathy and concern.<br /> <br /> F) In an increasingly hostile world, our Military is asked to perform tasks, usually undermanned and with substandard or missing equipment. Canada is a wealthy nation, and should be able to effect the policies of its’ vision to a more peaceful world, and the protection of it's citizens at home.<br /> <br /> G) Canada, and its’ Natural Beauty and Natural Resources belongs to Canadians. We want this added to the Constitution. We are no longer fooled by the phrase 'Foreign Investment'. There is no such thing. There is only 'Foreign Ownership', and many successful countries have imposed limits on ownership of land and resources and business by non-citizens. We demand the same. <br /> <br /> H) Business should be a truly free enterprise, not an impossible place for the average Canadian. Canadians should enjoy a truly free market, not one dominated by artificial supply shortages defined by foreign business and governments. Corporations are not people, nor are they citizens or voters. They have no need for protection from harm, but do need to be responsible for their actions that cause harm to citizens.<br /> <br /> I) We see many citizens who are the victims of Judicial and Federal incompetence as much as victims of crime. From Police Officers killed by people awaiting trial or convicted of tens of violent offences, to Natives who suffer from deplorable living conditions because of the Government's need to send decisions to committee for study. We demand policies and laws that protect citizens from harm from government incompetence by ensuring that government departments are responsible to citizens under their field of concern, by enacting a 'good Samaritan' type policy or law whereby the government must act to protect those citizens as quickly and safely as possible. People must not suffer because a government department is unable or unwilling to act.<br /> <br /> J) Citizens who live in large cities are increasingly experiencing a drop in the quality of their environment, and at a severe cost to their health. Sometimes this results in death. Our rivers show signs of pharmaceuticals and industrial chemicals and poisons. Our air quality is degrading, sometimes even in the winter. The land is contaminated with pesticides, heavy metals, and radioactivity. All of these results in a decreased quality of life, and the source of the contamination (if it can be determined) are not held responsible for it's presence in our environment. Lax enforcement of insignificant penalties means it is a good business decision to put the health of citizens at risk.<br /> <br /> <b>Our Demands:</b><br /> <br /> 1. Government will become a direct will of the people if it cannot become more productive. We, the Citizens of Canada will seek out and elect representatives without Party affiliation or those members of Parties who believe that Direct Democracy is the attainable way for the Government of Canada to once again become the voice of the people. Lobbyists for business interests are not people, they are corporations and do not vote. They should have no part of the political process.<br /> <br /> 2. The size of Government will be reduced. All public departments will have their administrative personnel cut by 1/2. The operational people who serve the public by implementing the policies of the department won't change, but their bosses will be reduced to levels that work for the public sector. All departments will have their budgets reduced by the amount spent in the final 2 months of the fiscal year (excluding wages not cut above). There will be no more year end spending on non-essentials so that budget figures will remain as bloated as last year. Expensing lunch for Government employees will be abolished. The rest of us must bring lunch or pay for it ourselves. ‘Entertaining a client’ is not an excuse, the Government of Canada is the customer and private enterprise is there to buy you lunch. The people of Canada say that the free lunch at our expense is over. Expenses, tax free income, golden parachutes and travel allowances for MP’s should also be abolished. If you leave Parliament, it’s because the people don’t want you there anymore, and have said so at the ballot box. MP’s already make a wage considered by some to be extreme. If you don’t want to serve Canada, you shouldn’t be there. Welcome to the real world. <br /> <br /> 3. Our foreign policy, many years out of date, will be updated before the next election and will reflect the governments desire to protect it's citizens at home and abroad with the same zeal it seems to be protecting us from some unseen enemy. We still remember World War 2 and the October Revolution of 1917, and their lessons on how dictators rise to power. Our rights at home and abroad will not be infringed one clause in the name of protecting us from unseen enemies, and that protection will be guaranteed in the Constitution if necessary. <br /> <br /> 4. Our Government will reflect the wishes of the Citizens more accurately, whether that mean the party system is abolished, or that proportional representation is actually proportional, even if this also means the Constitution needs to be amended. The Senate must also be reformed. If the citizens of Canada were to show the work ethic of some Senators, Employment figures would be much lower.<br /> <br /> 5. The Judiciary will also reflect the Citizens need for Justice, and recognition of the Victim. If the Judiciary needs to be elected, or the Constitution amended to favour the victim, then it must be done.<br /> <br /> 6. Our military should be given the funding and equipment for the demands put on them by the Government and foreign policy. The government should favour Canadian solutions to problems encountered with acquiring assets. It's not uncommon and even preferred for a country to demand its’ security is provided by Citizens for the security of national interests. It reduces the need for foreign made assets, increases our manufacturing capabilities, provides jobs and increases tax revenue. And the talent and knowledge remains in Canada. Remembrance Day will be a Statutory Holiday throughout Canada.<br /> <br /> 7. The Citizens of Canada demand that our environment become less hostile to our health and business be held responsible for harm done to the environment and in turn to citizens.<br /> <br /> 8. We demand that Corporations, if they are to have status as 'persons' under the law, also have responsibilities for their actions as 'persons'. 'Death of Corporation' shall be a punishment under the law for corporations convicted of responsibility for the death of citizens.<br /> <br /> In conclusion:<br /> <br /> The people of Canada can decide if they want to be mistreated by corporations and lied to by their own government, or whether they want to effect change during the next election cycle. Or the Government of Canada and its’ Provinces and Territories can begin to affect these changes before matters are taken from their hands.<br /> [/quote]

[Rural]

Wow, what a start! Not much there Dr C that I would change, maybe a few additions (I will think and work on it) you have been thinking obout this for a while it would seem. Let us try and keep this going, if we on Vive can reach a (small) consensus then it may be time to put this on the main page and/or go mainstreme with it. Let us see where it goes, let us try and add positive critique of this great start, dont say "this is wrong", say "is this better". A concise resume of what is wrong and where we need to go is just what we need to galvanize those who are dissatified but dont know what to do or where to turn. Good job Dr C.

[Dr Caleb]

Thanks Rural. I appreciate it.<br /> <br /> Things I didn't touch on, and why:<br /> <br /> Banks. They are corporations. They are the worst, but I saw no reason to single out their predatory behaviour. I believe all corporations should be subject to laws that make them deal fairly with Citizens, and with each other. They should pay "X" amount in taxes, and otherwise be left alone.<br /> <br /> I made no disctinction in regions, provinces or territories. It makes no difference, and can only be divisive. We stand as Canadians wronged by our government; as one or not at all.<br /> <br /> Although Armageddon mentioned it, there is no reference to any other country. There is no point, even if he hadn't advised against it. Again, Canada united.<br />

[gaulois]

Chapeau. But please tell us what have you been doing hiding under this Hulk cover all this time?

[Dr Caleb]

[QUOTE BY= gaulois] Chapeau. But please tell us what have you been doing hiding under this Hulk cover all this time? [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Paying attention <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/wink.gif' alt='Wink'>

[Rural]

Here are my first suggestiond on this:-<br /> J) Citizens <b>across Canada </b>are increasingly experiencing a drop in the quality of their environment................<br /> <br /> We ALL are seeing this not just those in the city.<br /> <br /> 7. The Citizens of Canada demand that our environment become less hostile to our health and business be held responsible for harm done to the environment and in turn to citizens. <b>Our natural resources must be protected not only from foreign ownership but from Corporate greed and mismanagement. The individual farmer, forester, cattle, swine or chicken grower or others who uses sustainable and responsible management practices must be treated separate from the large corporate operations that all too frequently do not. Large “farming” operations must be considered “industrial” operations and subject to the same rules as industry regarding discharges of wastes. The right of the individual grower to sell directly to the public must be protected.</b><br /> <br /> The poloution of our ground water by large hogg and cattle operations is a very real threat, but at the same time we must protect RESPONSIBLE family farmers and the like from being regulated to extinction.<br /> <br /> Im still thinking, more to come. I would like to see others reactin to this idea.<br /> <br />

[Dr Caleb]

Excellent! <br /> <br /> If others agree, I say let it stand. <br /> <br /> One question, should we re-quote the manifesto with the changes, or should I edit it back into the original?<br />

[gaulois]

With the change?<br /> <br /> COuld you wait a weebit before freezing first rev. ?<br /> I would like to add something about our medias being an expression of our sovereingty.

[Dr Caleb]

Absolutely, G. As I said, it's a living document, free to revision at the will of the people.<br /> <br /> I just didn't want to add or subtract anything until there was more feedback. The document is entirely from my perspective of things over the last couple years. If it's truly to be for all Canadians, others need to give their input too.<br /> <br /> I was just wondering if changes are added, would people like to refer to the original document, meaning I edit as changes are agreed upon, or would people prefer to have all the revisions, and the newest version of the document later in this thread.<br />

[Rural]

Still thinking.........<br /> "Expenses, tax free income, golden parachutes and travel allowances for MP's should also be abolished."<br /> <br /> I know what you are saying but perhaps this is a little broad in that MPs do have legitimate expenses incurred whilst fulfilling their duties, also the bureaucrats and appointees to various boards, comities and inquiries seem to be the worst offenders.<br /> <br /> Perhaps something like:-<br /> <br /> Government employees at all levels whether hired, appointed or elected should have to follow the same rules that govern small business as set out by Revenue Canada regarding expenses incurred including travel and car allowances. As a public servant no government employee, appointee, or anyone holding a position paid from the public purse including MPs shall receive any performance bonus, golden parachute or tax free income. <br /> <br /> I personaly am not real happy with "Our Demands" preferring a less strident term but I don't know what. Our Wishes" or "Our Expectations" seems a little weak. Any thoughts?<br /> <br /> Re how to update, was thinking the same, best I can come up with is to leave the origional and all the suggestions but add a "current" document (first item, witn explanation?)containing the agreed to changes so we dont loose sight of where weve come from.

[gaulois]

A Manifeste is about demands and *not* wishes or expectations IMHO. Original version should definitely be saved for posterity! At one point, we do want to add up a signup section similar to the Media Carta. I look forward to actually link to such a version at Le Canard. <br /> <br /> What won't we do to break the solitudes across People or make them better interoperate amongst each others? I think we can definitely do this much faster than the ruling classes can and yet pretend to break the solitudes, when they keep reenforcing them all the times.

[Dr Caleb]

[QUOTE BY= Rural]<br /> Government employees at all levels whether hired, appointed or elected should have to follow the same rules that govern small business as set out by Revenue Canada regarding expenses incurred including travel and car allowances. As a public servant no government employee, appointee, or anyone holding a position paid from the public purse including MPs shall receive any performance bonus, golden parachute or tax free income. [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Exactally! Much more succint than I put it. MP should have to abide by the same rules as everyone else.<br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= Rural]<br /> I personaly am not real happy with "Our Demands" preferring a less strident term but I don't know what. Our Wishes" or "Our Expectations" seems a little weak. Any thoughts?[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= gaulois] A Manifeste is about demands and *not* wishes or expectations IMHO. Original version should definitely be saved for posterity! At one point, we do want to add up a signup section similar to the Media Carta. I look forward to actually link to such a version at Le Canard. [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> What gaulois said. I'm tired of asking nicely. We wouldn't have to write this if they had done something about it whan we asked.<br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= gaulois<br /> What won't we do to break the solitudes across People or make them better interoperate amongst each others? I think we can definitely do this much faster than the ruling classes can and yet pretend to break the solitudes, when they keep reenforcing them all the times.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> That's a topic I didn't want to touch, because it is divisive. I know it exists, and I also know a die-hard seperatist can't be swayed by the facts. I think if we get the feds to be more empathetic to the needs of Canadians, it will put at ease the difficulties many seperatists have with being part of Canada.<br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= Rural]<br /> Re how to update, was thinking the same, best I can come up with is to leave the origional and all the suggestions but add a "current" document (first item, witn explanation?)containing the agreed to changes so we dont loose sight of where weve come from.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> If Gaulois would permit me to edit his post, or edit it himself, I'm Ok with that. I only suggested it be included in the current part of the thread so that if this one goes many pages, people won't have to keep 'flipping' back to the first post to read it.<br /> <br /> Ethier way has it's advantages.<br />