[Psudo]

andyt wrote:

The Mormons provide aid to a few hundred million Americans?

That's a generic, off-the-cuff "big number", and even so was intended to be globally rather than in the USA. I've never actually seen an estimate of how many people they help in some way. Church info says $1.3 billion in welfare provided since 1985, and zero overhead (it's all volunteers); how many meals does that buy? Then there are 2,167 continuing humanitarian projects going on worldwide and various other charitable enterprises. The local medical care system I often tout, Intermountain Health Care, was originally a branch of the Church's humanitarian wing, but is now independent and non-denominational.

andyt wrote:

how are you going to scale up this Mormon thing? What's stopping them from scaling up now?

The LDS Church's welfare program is funded by the "fast offerings," wherein members are asked to skip two meals per month (barring medical need) and donate the cost of those meals to the church's welfare arm. Participation is voluntary, so the welfare program's size is limited by the extent of fast offering participation.

It's also thought that the hunger of skipping two consecutive meals will create empathy for the world's hungry.

Like most charities, it's limited by charitable participation, which becomes a trade-off between advertising to get more revenue and annoying people so they donate less. It is different than most charities in that the people helped are asked to volunteer, so it does gradually spread the word without advertising costs. My goal isn't to get the world to opt-in to the LDS system, but to create local, efficient, self-perpetuating charities of their own based on the premise that if Mormons can do it, so can you.

[BartSimpson]

DanSC wrote:

andyt wrote:

As usual, things are made too complicated. In Canada you get your CPP you paid into, doesn't matter how rich or poor you are.

If you get out what you paid in, why not just skip the CPP all together and put the money in a certificate of deposit?

To some extent, that's what Chile does.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chile_pension_system

[BartSimpson]

andyt wrote:

Psudo wrote:

andyt wrote:

Bart's Mormon idea might have appeal, but anybody with a brain knows it's bullshit for a modern society.

How so?

If you removed all government supports, that sort of system would blow apart and you'd be back to Victorian England. Society is just too fragmented for it to work. It might work on a small scale within the larger framework, but then it's not a solution.

To social observers such as myself I agree with you that society is fragmented. But I see the fragmentation of society as corresponding with the growth of so-called social safety nets.

As the welfare state has grown people have become less concerned with the kind of family, community, and church social connections that have provided security to people in the past.

Years back a man may have been an alcoholic but he avoided being a drunk because he knew that it would cost him his home, his job, and his family. These days we have a homeless population that is nearly 100% dependent on government social services. Many of these people have no incentive to quit drinking or to quit drugs and the opinions of people close to them are irrelevant.

The Mormons, for instance, will help people with dependencies but the help requires they quit their addictions. The Mormons do not enable drug addicts or drunks.

Yes, dismantling government social programs would cause discontent in the dependent populations but that can be handled with a firm response of police and military crackdowns coupled with labor camps for offenders. Kind of like what you see with Joe Arpaio in Arizona but on a national scale.

It may sound cruel, but at the end of the day people will know the value of family, friends, and community and they'll start taking care not to alienate people they may end up depending on some day.

In other words, we will end up with better citizens at the end of the day and, ergo, smaller prison populations.

Society is addicted to welfare and, like any other addiction, quitting will be painful.

But worth it.

[Wada]

Cruel would be if something happens to you and you end up on welfare.