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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 10:58 am
 


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http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/international-news/us/us-in-state-of-denial-over-taxes/article2114872/

Unlike Greece, which is broke, the United States is rich and has the fiscal capacity to tax its way out of its debt mess. Policy makers may be reluctant to do so while the economy is weak. But longer-term, there's room for tax rates to go up: Contrary to what most Americans believe, the United States is one of the least-taxed countries in the developed world. They pay much lower taxes than any other G7 country. Among wealthy OECD countries, only Chile and Mexico tax their people and companies less...

“Historically and internationally, the U.S. can’t be categorized as anything other than a low-tax country,” remarked Gordon Betcherman, an economist and professor at the University of Ottawa’s school of international development and global studies...


Most of the rest of the developed world – Canada included – has managed to bear higher tax burdens for decades, without grinding their economies into the ground. Economists say even an economically weakened U.S. could cope with a heavier tax load.

The total tax burden on Americans, as a percentage of gross domestic product, stood at 24 per cent in 2009 – lower than it was in 1965 and still falling. That compares to 31.1 per cent in Canada, 34.3 per cent in Britain, 42 per cent in France, 37 per cent in Germany and 43.5 per cent in Italy. The Japanese, Australians and South Koreans all pay significantly more....

The bottom line? There is now a huge disconnect between the government Americans say they want, and the government they’re willing to pay for, argued Gary Hufbauer, a senior fellow at Peterson Institute for International Economics in Washington and a former top tax official at the Treasury department.

“Our expectations in terms of entitlement and defence programs far exceeds the willingness of people to pay for them,” he said.

For decades now, the U.S. has increased spending, but hasn’t ratcheted up taxes to pay for bigger government – the military, health care, pensions and the like. The country has been generating tax revenue equal to roughly 18 per cent of its economy for a generation, but spending has climbed steadily to nearly 25 per cent of GDP, from roughly 16 per cent in 1965. The results are huge deficits, and more than $14-trillion (U.S.) of debt.

The solution is simple enough on the tax side, at least on paper, Mr. Hufbauer suggested. The country must expand the tax base on individuals and businesses, eliminate many tax breaks, introduce a national value-added tax, raise fuel taxes and impose “user fees” on a whole range of things, including parks, highways, airports, smoking and drinking.

On the corporate side, Mr. Hufbauer pointed out that U.S. tax rates are high by international standards, but special corporate entities created by Congress dramatically shrinks the corporate tax base. While business taxes average 22 per cent of GDP in the OECD, the ratio is just 13 per cent in the U.S.

The Republicans have put themselves in a box. Carefully crafted tax increases offer a relatively easy way out that could mitigate the economic damage caused by draconian spending cuts and reverse income inequality between rich and poor. But the tax option has become a political stumbling block in the Republican-controlled House of Representatives (as are deep spending cuts in the Democratic-held Senate).

“It goes back about 20 years. The Republicans have signed on to this ‘no-taxes, ever’ pledge since Bush, the father, was president, and now this is being tested,” explained Chuck Marr, director of tax policy at the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities in Washington and a former economic adviser to Bill Clinton and former Democratic Senate majority leader Tom Daschle.

“Tax increases are the only way to ensure that high-income households pay a fair share of the deficit burden,” Mr. Marr said. “Without higher taxes as part of the fiscal-reform package, middle- and low-income households, which tend to feel spending cuts most acutely, will end up bearing almost all of the burden.”

At the top of Mr. Marr’s tax break hit list is the $100-billion (U.S.)-a-year mortgage interest deduction, which allows Americans to dock interest payments on homes, yachts, lines of credit and vacation properties. Like Mr. Hufbauer, he would introduce a VAT, raise tobacco and cigarette taxes, tax greenhouse gases and scrap the $700-billion Bush-era tax breaks, which are heavily skewed to wealthier Americans.

Bill Frenzel, a former Republican congressman and now a scholar at the Brookings Institution in Washington, agrees no budget fix is possible without tax hikes. But there also must be a smaller government, including offsetting concessions on the big entitlements, such as Medicare and Social Security, he said.

Americans, he said, will never accept the kind of tax levels that exist in most other countries.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 11:44 am
 


Quote:
Americans, he said, will never accept the kind of tax levels that exist in most other countries.


I think that's the whole point. You can't really compare the US with other countries like that because the mentalities on what the state should be/do is totally different. In Europe, citizens expect a lot from the state (social democracy) while the USA are based on principles of freedom of the individual.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 11:49 am
 


Proculation wrote:
Quote:
Americans, he said, will never accept the kind of tax levels that exist in most other countries.


I think that's the whole point. You can't really compare the US with other countries like that because the mentalities on what the state should be/do is totally different. In Europe, citizens expect a lot from the state (social democracy) while the USA are based on principles of freedom of the individual.


Oh, no, Americans also expect a lot from their state, including being a kick ass superpower that can throw it's weight around. As well as all sorts of social benefits. They've just swallowed the lie that if they tax the rich less somehow the rich will trickle money down to them - hasn't happened so far. And the bill is coming due.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 12:00 pm
 


andyt wrote:
Proculation wrote:
Quote:
Americans, he said, will never accept the kind of tax levels that exist in most other countries.


I think that's the whole point. You can't really compare the US with other countries like that because the mentalities on what the state should be/do is totally different. In Europe, citizens expect a lot from the state (social democracy) while the USA are based on principles of freedom of the individual.


Oh, no, Americans also expect a lot from their state, including being a kick ass superpower that can throw it's weight around. As well as all sorts of social benefits. They've just swallowed the lie that if they tax the rich less somehow the rich will trickle money down to them - hasn't happened so far. And the bill is coming due.

Those are all things that happened in the last few decades. I was talking about the foundation principles of the USA. They still remember what made them the richest nation on earth. Well, I hope they still do.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 12:02 pm
 


What made them the richest nation was winning wwii and then enacting all sorts of social programs and highway building projects. Having all your competitors bombed to dust helped a lot. So did high tax rates on the rich, that financed a civil society including education, and so did unions that elevated so many working people to the middle class so they had money to consume. Having a huge agricultural base didn't hurt either.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 12:04 pm
 


Denmark is the only other country that has a debt ceiling.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 12:05 pm
 


andyt wrote:
What made them the richest nation was winning wwii and then enacting all sorts of social programs and highway building projects. Having all your competitors bombed to dust helped a lot. So did high tax rates on the rich, that financed a civil society including education, and so did unions that elevated so many working people to the middle class so they had money to consume. Having a huge agricultural base didn't hurt either.

Ooook. I think we should stop that discussion here :oops:


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 12:19 pm
 


Proculation wrote:
andyt wrote:
What made them the richest nation was winning wwii and then enacting all sorts of social programs and highway building projects. Having all your competitors bombed to dust helped a lot. So did high tax rates on the rich, that financed a civil society including education, and so did unions that elevated so many working people to the middle class so they had money to consume. Having a huge agricultural base didn't hurt either.

Ooook. I think we should stop that discussion here :oops:


There's wisdom in that choice. Andy is on his Image today.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 12:26 pm
 


So Andy, You expect the poor innocent Christians of America to live in the horrible third world conditions found in countries such as Denmark and Sweden. You would condemn them to lives of poverty and uselessness. :cry:
SHAME


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 12:32 pm
 


Proculation wrote:
andyt wrote:
Proculation wrote:

I think that's the whole point. You can't really compare the US with other countries like that because the mentalities on what the state should be/do is totally different. In Europe, citizens expect a lot from the state (social democracy) while the USA are based on principles of freedom of the individual.


Oh, no, Americans also expect a lot from their state, including being a kick ass superpower that can throw it's weight around. As well as all sorts of social benefits. They've just swallowed the lie that if they tax the rich less somehow the rich will trickle money down to them - hasn't happened so far. And the bill is coming due.

Those are all things that happened in the last few decades. I was talking about the foundation principles of the USA. They still remember what made them the richest nation on earth. Well, I hope they still do.


I find that they have no clue as to why they ended up as the richest nation on earth.

Protip: It's not the Economic System.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 12:34 pm
 


It's a shame btw that The Netherlands is not stated in that graph. I really would like to know where they stand...


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 12:38 pm
 


the graph is skewed brenda. there are difference measures of total taxes. for Canada it's 40% and for the uSA 36% but these don't show up in this graph. I watch for the proper figures all the time. My understanding is they are proprietary property of the OECD - one of the set of statistics they charge for.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 1:18 pm
 


Bruce_the_vii wrote:
the graph is skewed brenda. there are difference measures of total taxes. for Canada it's 40% and for the uSA 36% but these don't show up in this graph. I watch for the proper figures all the time. My understanding is they are proprietary property of the OECD - one of the set of statistics they charge for.

The charts are about 'tax revenue/%GDP". Not nominal tax rates.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 1:55 pm
 


Proculation wrote:
Bruce_the_vii wrote:
the graph is skewed brenda. there are difference measures of total taxes. for Canada it's 40% and for the uSA 36% but these don't show up in this graph. I watch for the proper figures all the time. My understanding is they are proprietary property of the OECD - one of the set of statistics they charge for.

The charts are about 'tax revenue/%GDP". Not nominal tax rates.



I've watched this figure for years, and it's hard to pin down. I believe the chart is a freebee that understates the case.

And these days you have to watch government spending vs government revenues - as the huge deficits skew the percentage a lot.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 2:03 pm
 


Well, with all due respect, it's not THAT difficult to calculate taxes revenue as part of the GDP.

It's just compatibility.


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