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Seperation......It's Not Just For Quebecers Anymore
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Author:  grainfedprairieboy [ Sun Jan 22, 2006 4:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Seperation......It's Not Just For Quebecers Anymore
VicVega VicVega:
LONG LIVE THE INDEPENDANT STATE OF ALBERTA! Sounds just a little ridiculous doesn't it? A unified Canada is the best Canada for everyone, Alberta, Saskatechewan, and Quebec included.


A unified Canada under the founding principals of Confederation would in fact be a great nation.

VicVega VicVega:
So why don't everyone of you seperatists take your heads out of your asses, and smell the sweet smell of this country, instead of the smell of what has been coming out of your mouths for the last 40 years? It is my pleasure to cast the first NO vote! (Seems only fitting since it's my thread and poll)


Because all regions of Canada have separate aspirations that cannot be realised through the inequities propagated by a Confederation that has abandoned its core principals and has moved to the model of democratic central control by a federal state such as exists in most European countries.

To understand the mind of a sovereignist you have to recognise the importance of fish to the culture of the Maritimes, language to a Francophonie or democracy and independence of spirit to an Albertan. Its great to wax poetically about Canada under the current system but sentimentality appears to be waning and separatist sentiments are on the rise throughout the country with no indication that the current form of federalism is appropriately assuaging the concerns of regional objectives.

You will never convince Queerbecers not to secede from Canada because you ‘love’ them and that if they do they will suffer economically, damn their language, culture and concerns with the fiscal imbalance. It is an irritant to Queerbecers that there but for the grace of you go they!

In spite of multiple generations of propagating a culture of entitlement and the welfare state dependent upon the central government, a new breath of pride has been inhaled into the regional lungs of the Maritimes and Saskatchewan and it is only a matter of time until they are as disconnected and disenfranchised with Ottawa as someone from Outremount.

As for Alberta, you yourself are fully cognizant that the “spoiled brat” label perpetuated throughout Canada is inaccurate and that Alberta simply wants the democratic deficit embodied in an appointed Senate and Judiciary addressed, equalization payments reviewed not out of greed, but rather a concern for fiscal repression wrought through a system of inequitable transfers that penalize the productive and reward the inept.

In my younger days I worked for a contractor whose solution to problem equipment often was to paint it. When that did not remedy the problem it would appear that he would spend 2 dollars to save a buck. This seems to be reflective of the current state of Confederation. Whitewash the problem with a lot of nationalistic pomp and circumstance then throw cash like a lieberal throws mud, hoping that something sticks.
Author:  Jaime_Souviens [ Sun Jan 22, 2006 4:56 pm ]
Post subject: 
All the provinces need is to have the same control over their own affairs that the different states of the United States have. They have a great deal of local control, (and local pride), but a) the country overall is not coming apart, and b) the relative cost differences, (pluses and minuses), certainly haven't sunk the American economy.

It's the strength of state governments that allows places like Texas, California, Massachusetts, and West Virginia to all exist in the same country, and the differences between the Canadian provinces are no less, nor no greater, than among the 50 states.
Author:  grainfedprairieboy [ Sun Jan 22, 2006 5:03 pm ]
Post subject: 
Jaime_Souviens Jaime_Souviens:
All the provinces need is to have the same control over their own affairs that the different states of the United States have. They have a great deal of local control, (and local pride), but a) the country overall is not coming apart, and b) the relative cost differences, (pluses and minuses), certainly haven't sunk the American economy.

It's the strength of state governments that allows places like Texas, California, Massachusetts, and West Virginia to all exist in the same country, and the differences between the Canadian provinces are no less, nor no greater, than among the 50 states.


[cheer]

Re Confederate Canada along the lines of its original principal and the separatists so disdained will disappear overnight. The great irony is that the federal imperialists, are the true instigators of the separatist sentiment.
Author:  Jaime_Souviens [ Sun Jan 22, 2006 5:09 pm ]
Post subject: 
Thanks, gfpb,

I realize that a lot of people here are uncomfortable with the idea, after all, this is a patriotic Canada site, and I never question that.

But I don't see why it's so hard to realize that by increasing provincial strength, you can't increase the strength of Canada overall.

Canada without separatist movements will be a stronger place than Canada as it is now.
Author:  Tricks [ Sun Jan 22, 2006 5:11 pm ]
Post subject: 
Jaime_Souviens Jaime_Souviens:
Canada without separatist movements will be a stronger place than Canada as it is now.
I agree
Author:  Knoss [ Sun Jan 22, 2006 6:07 pm ]
Post subject: 
$1:
But I don't see why it's so hard to realize that by increasing provincial strength, you can't increase the strength of Canada overall.


It's not so much a case of strengthing Canada as allowing certain issues to be delt with at the state/provincial level and recognizing that differnt parts of Canada have differnt administrative demands.
Author:  VicVega [ Sun Jan 22, 2006 10:43 pm ]
Post subject: 
GFPB I hate to say this but you sound like a doctor who's sloution is to amputate the leg and transplant a new one. If this country seperates it will not reconfederate. The problem is that we are allowing our regional differences to seperate us instead of letting our national commons bring us together. I can understand your points and maybe in a perfect world they would work. But in a perfect world we would not be facing this problem in the first place. To say that reconfederation once the provinces have seperated is naivety at it's finest. I have a funny feeling that once we let the excuse of regional pride over national pride have prevalence, it will only get stronger, and reconfederation of the entire country will be next to imposible.
Author:  grainfedprairieboy [ Sun Jan 22, 2006 11:15 pm ]
Post subject: 
VicVega VicVega:
To say that reconfederation once the provinces have seperated is naivety at it's finest. .


I have never said that. What I say is that we must Re Confederate or we make separation inevitable.
Author:  VicVega [ Mon Jan 23, 2006 6:19 pm ]
Post subject: 
Re-confederation is not the answer, re-confederation of the provinces would only further the gap and speed up seperation.

Think of it: West - Lower, rebalance, or eliminate the transfer payment program.
- Parliamentary and Senate Reform
- Less interferance from Ottawa and Ontario
- No Kyoto

Atlantic - Higher transfer payments
- Provincial Control Over Resources, same as Alberta
- No Parliamentary Reform (They would lose seats)

Quebec - Higher transfer payments
- Distinct society status
- Return of the NEP
- No Parlimentary Reform

Ontario - No changes to the current system as it favours them


Look at the differences. It would drive the seperation movement in this country to a new high. Things like this would point out our differences instead of focusing on our positvies, what makes us as a country great.

Canada - Medicare
- Peace Keeping
- A co-working amongst all the provinces to strengthen our country and make sure no one province gets left behind.
- A cultural hodgepodge in which ALL people, of ALL races can feel welcome and at home, as equals. Distinct but Canadain.
- A helping hand in times of need to ALL Canadians. We are there when our brothers and sisters need us the most.

Thats what I love about our country, my homeland. We must find a way
to work within the system we have and improve upon it in such a way that everyone benifits, or we can write this country off within most of our lifetimes. I for one am not ready or willing to give up on Canada.
Author:  Lord-Beaverbrook [ Mon Jan 23, 2006 6:23 pm ]
Post subject: 
The premiers are only governors, working under the Prime Minister they don't have the right to seperate. Perhaps the people should just do best with what they have.
Author:  VicVega [ Mon Jan 23, 2006 6:35 pm ]
Post subject: 
Lord-Beaverbrook Lord-Beaverbrook:
The premiers are only governors, working under the Prime Minister they don't have the right to seperate.


It is not the Priemers, it is the people of these provinces, who have let their greed in money, and regional pride over national pride envelop them to a foaming at the mouth frenzy.

We should not focus on changing what is not broken. We need to focus on the people of this great country and show them that Canada, for good or bad, is and would be a better, more economically stable, and more socially compasionate place than a seperate Quebec, Alberta, West, East, North, or South.

The people of the Alberta movement have a survival of the fittest mentality, and would see their own neighbors and employees eating out of soup kitchens because what once payed 30/hr now only pays 5/hr because it makes the company more profit.

The English speakers of Quebec would be persecuted by the Francaphone majority with the same ferverance that supporters of their movement believe has been put against them. To top it off the Country of Free Quebec would be a poor one, with no base for an economy to support the social programs that Quebecers have become accustomed to under the Canadian way of life.

This may be a Conservative campain slogan, but I think it applies here aswell: It is time for all Canadians to STAND UP FOR CANADA, while there is still a Canada to stand up for.
Author:  grainfedprairieboy [ Mon Jan 23, 2006 6:37 pm ]
Post subject: 
VicVega VicVega:
Re-confederation is not the answer, re-confederation of the provinces would only further the gap and speed up seperation.


You feel that if all provinces are equal then you make dissolution of the Federation inevitable? I disagree. I think the East will overcome their prejudice toward equitable reform if it is fed to them in small doses and the eastern based media cooperates. First step will be when Harper creates the triple E, next elected Judges. Two things I'm pretty excited about!!!

VicVega VicVega:
Thats what I love about our country, my homeland. We must find a way to work within the system we have and improve upon it in such a way that everyone benifits, or we can write this country off within most of our lifetimes. I for one am not ready or willing to give up on Canada.


I agree completely with your last statement
Author:  Numure [ Mon Jan 23, 2006 7:17 pm ]
Post subject: 
Lord-Beaverbrook Lord-Beaverbrook:
The premiers are only governors, working under the Prime Minister they don't have the right to seperate. Perhaps the people should just do best with what they have.


The premiers don't answer to the prime minister, at all. I have no clue where you picked that up.
Author:  VicVega [ Tue Jan 24, 2006 10:58 pm ]
Post subject: 
grainfedprairieboy grainfedprairieboy:
VicVega VicVega:
Re-confederation is not the answer, re-confederation of the provinces would only further the gap and speed up seperation.


You feel that if all provinces are equal then you make dissolution of the Federation inevitable? I disagree. I think the East will overcome their prejudice toward equitable reform if it is fed to them in small doses and the eastern based media cooperates. First step will be when Harper creates the triple E, next elected Judges. Two things I'm pretty excited about!!!

VicVega VicVega:
Thats what I love about our country, my homeland. We must find a way to work within the system we have and improve upon it in such a way that everyone benifits, or we can write this country off within most of our lifetimes. I for one am not ready or willing to give up on Canada.


I agree completely with your last statement


What I belive is that the provinces are equal to a large degree at the moment. What is not equal is how some of the provinces are treated. What will make the disovling of our country inevitable is a rush to restore full equality as it will bring many things to light. It sucks but the federalisation and re-equalisation of this country must be brought around with slow changes over the course of a life time, and not in one broad movement. Certain parties/people would see this as creating either a further fiscal imbalance and picking on, or not euqal enough. To paraphrase George Orwell, unfortunately, "All the provinces are qual, just some are more equal than others." This is what has sparked the movement here in the first place, and to take away the "extra" equality would cause a split on the other side of the country. Its a Catch 22 that must be shifted at a slow and steady pace.
Author:  grainfedprairieboy [ Tue Jan 24, 2006 11:09 pm ]
Post subject: 
VicVega VicVega:
What will make the disovling of our country inevitable is a rush to restore full equality as it will bring many things to light.


I truly believe the Confederation can survive the truth being exposed.

VicVega VicVega:
It sucks but the federalisation and re-equalisation of this country must be brought around with slow changes over the course of a life time, and not in one broad movement. Certain parties/people would see this as creating either a further fiscal imbalance and picking on, or not euqal enough. Its a Catch 22 that must be shifted at a slow and steady pace.


It is a delicate procedure but I believe that unless we act now, a future catalyst could destroy the country.

Honestly now, do you believe that Alberta will allow another NEP?
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