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Quebec author will burn books to block bilingualism - Canadi
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Author:  MacDonaill [ Wed Mar 05, 2008 10:02 pm ]
Post subject: 

Bacardi4206 Bacardi4206:
This entire Quebec thing is really getting annoying now, read so many articles on things like this. One being a Irish Pub in Quebec who had Irish Posters in English. They got fined and asked to put them down because the posters were in english.

I believe that was the case, been awhile since I last saw the article. Then there is the other ones just like it. It's like English is a sin in Quebec lol.

In English Canada, schools teach both English and French. Both being a requirement to learn. Doesn't Quebec have the same system? or do they only offer French? Because I am starting to think that they don't teach French in Quebec?

If they don't, that's really bad because we have to learn both languages and they only have to learn theres?


I wouldn't rely on impressions; get facts. If you don't, you risk falling into the same trap so many others tend to fall into.

English is a required subject in every Quebec school.

Author:  Bacardi4206 [ Wed Mar 05, 2008 10:07 pm ]
Post subject: 

MacDonaill MacDonaill:
Bacardi4206 Bacardi4206:
This entire Quebec thing is really getting annoying now, read so many articles on things like this. One being a Irish Pub in Quebec who had Irish Posters in English. They got fined and asked to put them down because the posters were in english.

I believe that was the case, been awhile since I last saw the article. Then there is the other ones just like it. It's like English is a sin in Quebec lol.

In English Canada, schools teach both English and French. Both being a requirement to learn. Doesn't Quebec have the same system? or do they only offer French? Because I am starting to think that they don't teach French in Quebec?

If they don't, that's really bad because we have to learn both languages and they only have to learn theres?


I wouldn't rely on impressions; get facts. If you don't, you risk falling into the same trap so many others tend to fall into.

English is a required subject in every Quebec school.


Huh? I never stated what I said as a fact? That was a question hence the question mark. Should look out for those next time ;)

"In English Canada, schools teach both English and French. Both being a requirement to learn. Doesn't Quebec have the same system? or do they only offer French? Because I am starting to think that they don't teach French in Quebec?"

"If they don't, that's really bad because we have to learn both languages and they only have to learn theres?"

Author:  MacDonaill [ Wed Mar 05, 2008 10:42 pm ]
Post subject: 

Bacardi4206 Bacardi4206:
MacDonaill MacDonaill:
Bacardi4206 Bacardi4206:
This entire Quebec thing is really getting annoying now, read so many articles on things like this. One being a Irish Pub in Quebec who had Irish Posters in English. They got fined and asked to put them down because the posters were in english.

I believe that was the case, been awhile since I last saw the article. Then there is the other ones just like it. It's like English is a sin in Quebec lol.

In English Canada, schools teach both English and French. Both being a requirement to learn. Doesn't Quebec have the same system? or do they only offer French? Because I am starting to think that they don't teach French in Quebec?

If they don't, that's really bad because we have to learn both languages and they only have to learn theres?


I wouldn't rely on impressions; get facts. If you don't, you risk falling into the same trap so many others tend to fall into.

English is a required subject in every Quebec school.


Huh? I never stated what I said as a fact? That was a question hence the question mark. Should look out for those next time ;)


Relax bro, I wasn't accusing you of anything. I was just offering you advice. One's impressions are not necessarily proof of anything. That's all I was saying.

Author:  fire_i [ Thu Mar 06, 2008 8:51 am ]
Post subject: 

Bacardi, next time I would suggest getting the facts yourself, for that is highly accessible info - alternatively, read up, because I had actually already mentionned English is a necessary class from grade 1 to high school promotion. And I'll use this opportunity to point out that those who go to advanced learning (not really college since the Quebec system is a bit different from others, but it's an equivalent of sorts - called Cégep) still have to go through a few more mandatory language classes including some more of both French and English.

Sorry if that sounds aggressive, but the belief that English is not taught in Quebec is so widespread and I come across it so often just thinking some people still spread it and that, heck, someone had to start the rumor at some point pisses me off beyond all reasonability. Not blaming you, but I think you get my drift.

Author:  BartSimpson [ Thu Mar 06, 2008 9:29 am ]
Post subject: 

fire_i fire_i:
BartSimpson BartSimpson:
fire_i fire_i:
Victor Lévy-Beaulieu is a twit and lives in his own little bubble - he can just do whatever he wants, nobody takes him seriously.

Sasquatch : I'm not sure I get your point about Louisiana.


Louisiana (aka Lousyanna) was allowed to retain French as a language after the Louisiana Purchase and they also retained the Napoleonic Code as the basis of law as opposed to the English Common Law that is the foundation of law in 49 other US states.

Francophones in Louisiana are routinely considered ignorant and a Cajun (derivative of 'Arcadian') accent is a bar to employment and educational opportunties.

Quebec francophones are pursuing a course that will leave them similarly marginalized on the fringes on 21st century North American society.


And what's the basis of your belief?


Belief? That would be the numerous people who were raised Cajun who go to voice coaches to relieve themselves of their Cajun accents because (whether you like it or not, you twit) people who have Cajun accents have a bitch of a time getting work and they also have a bitch of a time getting into higher education. Probably the highest profile examples of two people who went to voice coaches to get rid of their Cajun accents would be Britney & Jamie Lynn Spears.

$1:
VLB's claims? Ha! That guy is a twit. His opinion is representative of no one but himself. If you base yourself off what he says to analyze the course of action Quebec francophones are taking concerning relations with the world at large, I'm afraid you're waaaay off the outfield, past the sidelines, somewhere in the terraces.


Ignorantly assuming that my opinions were formed only as I read this post is, well, ignorant.

$1:
Bilingualism is highly well-regarded and learning English is constantly pushed as a necessity.


Bilingualism is not a necessity for 350 million people on this continent.

$1:
When you say "course that will leave [us] marginalized", I'm guessing you're not actually referring to Beaulieu's crap (as you'd need to be an idiot to do so, and I don't consider you to be an idiot), but rather remotely to the Cajuns' case and to the language protection laws in Quebec. Right? I'll assume so over the rest of this paragraph - if I'm wrong, do tell. So, going on : thing is that unlike what VLB thinks, bilingualism *can* go along with protection of the language. No need to axe bilingualism to protect the language. By that logic, no need to stop protecting the language to ensure Quebec will not end up marginalized...


Again, you miss the point that 350 million people are not going to learn a dialect of French to accomadate a relative minority in Quebec or an even smaller minority in Louisiana.

$1:
Between you and I anyway, what kind of wretched society would 21st century NA society be if it saw a mere difference in language as enough of a basis to discriminate?


Yet Quebec has laws openly discriminating against English. I imagine you see the hypocrisy here, right?

$1:
[rant](Or is it already starting, with Visa idiotically leading the march and burning the first acres for everyone to follow, all just to save a few dollars? In such a case I'd say, let's just hit them where it hurts until they get the fucking message : profit. Respect us, we'll give you the one and only thing you want ; otherwise we'll just massively support your competitors and you'll see we're ready to pay back every insult 10 for 1)[/rant] If I follow your comparison, that's essentially what you're implying...


Corporations like VISA are not social programs. If they do not find it cost effective to conduct business in French then it is their choice not to do so.

$1:
Likewise : I'm aware that's most certainly not what you were implying, but no matter how many times I read what you say it seems to me you condone the fact Cajuns are being denied access to education and jobs because of a mere accent... as if it they were to blame for having kept their language and culture instead of the idiot fuckwads who base themselves off an accent and a stereotypical and wrongful impression in order to allow people access to such important things. Again, I'm sure that's not the point you wanted to make, but I have to say the comparison between Cajuns VS Misinformed bullshit and Quebec francophones VS Globalization is extremely sloppy at best.


Whether or not you find the observations about Cajuns to be offensive is irrelevant. The fact of the matter is that the observations are fundamentally true and Cajuns themselves are dispensing with the linguistic aspects of their culture in order to assimilate into the broader population. An interesting byproduct of their successful integration into popular culture is the increasing popularity of Cajun cuisine.

What remains to be seen is whether or not Quebec's francophones will elect to isolate themselves from the rest of North America or if they will choose to leave the past behind and integrate into the dominant culture. As the USA and Canada merge closer economically and politically then at some point your language laws in Quebec will come into conflict with a treaty or agreement with the USA. And that will be the end of your language laws right there. The decline of French in North America is an inevitability. Deal with it.

$1:
Oh, and it's "ils vivèrent heureux pour toujours". ;)


Thank you.

Author:  sasquatch2 [ Thu Mar 06, 2008 10:51 am ]
Post subject: 

Resistance is futile---you will be assimilated.

Author:  MacDonaill [ Thu Mar 06, 2008 5:05 pm ]
Post subject: 

Bullshit. Anyone whose mother tongue is not English is already expected to learn English and hence to be at least bilingual. And nobody is expecting the Americans to learn French. But get used to the fact that English Canadian children WILL be learning French for a long time to come.

There are 17 million *native speakers* of English in this country. There are about 7 million native speakers of French in Canada. The other 8 million people in the country had to learn English or French (or both) as a second language.

One day, a majority of people in this country will be functionally bilingual. French is an important world language, as is English, and it is like a fucking godsend that these two language just happen to be the two major languages spoken in Canada, and our official languages. It gives Canadians an advantage internationally.

French is an official language of the UN, Nato, the Olympics, the EU, the African Union, the Francophonie, and pretty mch every other international organisation. The head of the UN

The current spokesman for NATO, the guy representing the organisation in the media, is a Canadian. According to him, he got the job because he was bilingual, non American, and non European (hence, not partial to either the US or Europe). Bilingual Canadians are perfect for international positions such as these.

So if you want to hold your children back from moving up in the world, then be my guest I suppose. Seems pretty stupid to let your own personal prejudices get in the way of their holding a good job in the federal public service, or even from furthering their prospects in international business and such.

I'm glad I learned French, and my kids will most definitely be bilingual from the start, and I'll probably even push them to learn a third language.

Author:  JoBec [ Thu Mar 06, 2008 6:22 pm ]
Post subject: 

BartSimpson

French Canadians will never be assimilated. Some 200 hundred years ago, the Britts tried it by sending the "Infamous" Lord Durham to Quebec with a clear mandate : assimilate all French Canadians. Not only did he fail but later said that " it's an impossible task to assimilate French Canadians " He died a few months after . ( his last words were "Tabarnak" ....)

Protection of the French Language and the culture will always rally 99,9 % of all French Canadians and they still make 80% of the Quebec pop. so forget about all kind of assimilation for the next 50 years .... Comparing their situation to Louisiana Cajuns is just ..... so American !

Cheers, JoBec

Author:  Knoss [ Thu Mar 06, 2008 7:57 pm ]
Post subject: 

$1:
Protection of the French Language and the culture will always rally 99,9 % of all French Canadians and they still make 80% of the Quebec pop. so forget about all kind of assimilation for the next 50 years .... Comparing their situation to Louisiana Cajuns is just ..... so American !


Protecting French is one thing but why does Quebec repress every ethnic group other then the French? You German Canadians is Saskatchewan are just as disitnct as French Canadians in Quevbec but we are able to tollerate other groups and learn English becsuae it is a common language... end Language laws...thats reasonalb eaccomidation.

Author:  kenmore [ Fri Mar 07, 2008 5:52 pm ]
Post subject: 

whats his story ...? does he think they will name a street after him....
I am a Quebecer.... and I say ... burn baby burn... c'est la vie...

Author:  hwacker [ Fri Mar 07, 2008 5:58 pm ]
Post subject: 

MacDonaill MacDonaill:
Bullshit. Anyone whose mother tongue is not English is already expected to learn English and hence to be at least bilingual. And nobody is expecting the Americans to learn French. But get used to the fact that English Canadian children WILL be learning French for a long time to come.

There are 17 million *native speakers* of English in this country. There are about 7 million native speakers of French in Canada. The other 8 million people in the country had to learn English or French (or both) as a second language.

One day, a majority of people in this country will be functionally bilingual. French is an important world language, as is English, and it is like a fucking godsend that these two language just happen to be the two major languages spoken in Canada, and our official languages. It gives Canadians an advantage internationally.

French is an official language of the UN, Nato, the Olympics, the EU, the African Union, the Francophonie, and pretty mch every other international organisation. The head of the UN

The current spokesman for NATO, the guy representing the organisation in the media, is a Canadian. According to him, he got the job because he was bilingual, non American, and non European (hence, not partial to either the US or Europe). Bilingual Canadians are perfect for international positions such as these.

So if you want to hold your children back from moving up in the world, then be my guest I suppose. Seems pretty stupid to let your own personal prejudices get in the way of their holding a good job in the federal public service, or even from furthering their prospects in international business and such.

I'm glad I learned French, and my kids will most definitely be bilingual from the start, and I'll probably even push them to learn a third language.





ROTFL ROTFL ROTFL

Author:  kenmore [ Fri Mar 07, 2008 6:32 pm ]
Post subject: 

I am bilingual.. mother quebecoise and father british.. I respect and love both.. I support in principle bill 101 to an extent.. I have always maintained that until English is Canada is threatened English Canada will not understand how bill 101 is justified.. recent polls state that immigrants are keeping their mother tongue and are using it in business and are not learning the either of the official languages... you have to give Quebecers credit for taking a stand on these issues .. esp their stand on the muslim issue...
and the rest of the provinces need to take a stand as well.

Author:  Knoss [ Fri Mar 07, 2008 10:08 pm ]
Post subject: 

$1:
I am bilingual.. mother quebecoise and father british.. I respect and love both.. I support in principle bill 101 to an extent.. I have always maintained that until English is Canada is threatened English Canada will not understand how bill 101 is justified..


Except that most anglophones gave up thier language.

Author:  fire_i [ Fri Mar 07, 2008 10:48 pm ]
Post subject: 

BartSimpson

My God. Just, wow, oh wow.

You know man, I had respect for you. We pretty much always disagree on every issue, but I had respect for you. But I read that last post of yours, and wow. I'll have to reconsider.

So I could call you a twit all along this post. I could. But I won't, because that'd lead nowhere. Just read it as you'd always do, but keep the words you've just read in mind. Truly, you disappoint me - you're better than that. You're a bright guy, I know it. Now, please, show it.

BartSimpson BartSimpson:
Belief? That would be the numerous people who were raised Cajun who go to voice coaches to relieve themselves of their Cajun accents because (whether you like it or not, you twit) people who have Cajun accents have a bitch of a time getting work and they also have a bitch of a time getting into higher education. Probably the highest profile examples of two people who went to voice coaches to get rid of their Cajun accents would be Britney & Jamie Lynn Spears.


That's good. I agree. On all the line. Thing is : that wasn't what I was talking of at all. That "belief" I talked of is rather your belief that Quebec francophones are going against a wall. Maybe I wasn't clear enough - I'll give that to you. But really, considering all I wrote afterwards, I DO wonder how you could get the idea I was questioning what you were saying about the Cajun accent rather than your position on the actions of Quebec francophones.

$1:
Ignorantly assuming that my opinions were formed only as I read this post is, well, ignorant.


Okay, then what do you base your opinions on? I'm still waiting...

$1:
Bilingualism is not a necessity for 350 million people on this continent.


Sure it isn't.

But huh. Hello? I was talking of Quebec francophones alone, and that was painfully obvious. The rest of America has nothing to do with it. I was saying that bilingualism is critically important for francophones. Sure it's a bonus for everyone else, but I never rose that point.

So please, don't say I assume... one, you do the same, second, I at least have the decency of acknowledging I assumed stuff and asking you to tell me if I was off the mark.

$1:
Again, you miss the point that 350 million people are not going to learn a dialect of French to accomadate a relative minority in Quebec or an even smaller minority in Louisiana.


And you miss the point that I was talking of bilingualism in Quebec alone, for francophones alone, so please read what I said again and keep this in mind. I don't know where you got the idea I was talking of the entire freaking continent, but you had to look pretty damn deep. So please, please, don't go

$1:
Yet Quebec has laws openly discriminating against English. I imagine you see the hypocrisy here, right?


BUZZ

Wrong.

Again, as I always do, I admit there are some tiny aspects of the language laws that are ridiculous and uneeded, and could even be considered discriminating if one would stretch it and stretch it and stretch it and completely ignore all the context for the purpose of victimizing a group and demonizing another. But the laws themselves ARE NOT discriminatory. At all. The language police? There are always idiots, and it's sure some will attempt abusing their power - but the laws themselves are fine, barring a few, nearly absolutely irrelevant details because nothing is perfect.

You have qualms against the language laws, well then tell me why, exctly why, and I'll do my best to show you why they're actually just fine and everything up to little details is justifiable. Again, maybe not outright justified, because some will always disagree, but justifiable enough to be maintained.

$1:
Corporations like VISA are not social programs. If they do not find it cost effective to conduct business in French then it is their choice not to do so.


Yes I agree. Hence why I'm saying : if they won't accept our laws, then we'll have no choice but to speak to them in their language - money. Payback, basically. And if that's not enough for them to accept bending just a little bit, then so be it. But really, no company in its right mind would accept to piss off a market of 6+ million people to save like a few hundred thousands one-time. Guess we'd just have to be pissed enough.

$1:
Whether or not you find the observations about Cajuns to be offensive is irrelevant. The fact of the matter is that the observations are fundamentally true and Cajuns themselves are dispensing with the linguistic aspects of their culture in order to assimilate into the broader population. An interesting byproduct of their successful integration into popular culture is the increasing popularity of Cajun cuisine.


No. That I agreed with all along. What I find offensive is that you seemed to condone that discrimination. And I'll say it one more time : I know that's not what you meant. But it simply sounds that way, and it makes a little annoying ticking at the back of my brain.

$1:
What remains to be seen is whether or not Quebec's francophones will elect to isolate themselves from the rest of North America or if they will choose to leave the past behind and integrate into the dominant culture. As the USA and Canada merge closer economically and politically then at some point your language laws in Quebec will come into conflict with a treaty or agreement with the USA. And that will be the end of your language laws right there. The decline of French in North America is an inevitability. Deal with it.


Aaaaaaand now THE beef of the issue.

And that was all I was saying all along, and what you didn't understand correctly it would appear. To put it as clearly as possible, as evidently as possible :

--- It is possible for Quebec francophones to maintain the French language as well as integrating themselves to all eventual north american markets and maintaining a competitive economy on the world scene by promoting unifying factors such as bilingualism among Quebec francophones all while keeping the language laws strong. We're not asking for the moon here, but only for a little bit of goodwill - and that would be reciprocical - yes we ask for some, but we'd also do our part of the job to make sure our laws don't interfere too much. Find a middle ground, basically : as long as any eventual treaty would have Quebec as a minimally significant market, it is almost certain an agreement could be reached to satisfy everyone (and again, I'll take time to note, I'm not saying the 7 million of us would bark and bite until the 350 million others would give us the moon - we'd just ask for maybe a tiny addendum or a fucking pamphlet to be translated, and a market of 7 million people is so much more important than this kind of details that everybody would agree it's better that way like 98% of the time - as for the other 2%, well SO BE IT, don't think francophones will be ditching the last line of defense of their language and culture because of mere peanuts in the coffers of the state). The only times an agreement couldn't really be reached is when Quebec would be essentially insignificant anyway, so one would have to wonder why we'd be so bothered about signing that kind of treaty anyway.

Anyway, one would think that if Quebec would have to destroy its language laws to get a place in a critical treaty, it'd already have happened. In fact, there are some theoretically important treaties we live happily without. Like, say... the Canadian Constitution. Just an example. Sloppy, maybe, but still...

Every 50 years someone new predicts French will be done with and buried by the end of his lifetime. It hasn't happened yet. It won't happen tomorrow. It might happen in a long while, if the world changes a lot. But under the current dynamics, or only slightly different ones? Forget it. We're here to stay. Will protecting our culture cost us a bit, economically? Sure it will. Will it put us to our knees? It simply won't. Is the cost worth it? It damn is, and nobody is going to break us so easily - protection of our own language and culture makes near-unanimity among Quebec francophones, and as long as we hold power on our own destiny, don't even imagine we'll be dropping our defenses. And please, don't go saying we won't hold our destiny for long. That'd be a delusion. We do, we'll still do tomorrow, we'll almost certainly still do by the time we'll both be dead - only a truly huge change could modify that. In fact, even in much worse conditions before, French and the Québécois culture survived, so one has to wonder if even completely losing control over protection of it would change anything at all. It's not economical cost that's going to stop us, especially when it's illogical and virtually impossible to think the costs are going to kill our society - they never have, they don't, they almost certainly never will unless things change dramatically, so they realistically won't until a long, long time. Hurt a bit, yes, destroy, no.

Right, that is all I had to say. Like, ever. So I'll just say to everyone who read this : if you want to say something to me, or ask me a question, read this again and maybe the answer will come to you.

Author:  redwings82 [ Sun Mar 09, 2008 9:35 pm ]
Post subject: 

Burning books is just messed up...

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